Re: Preventing escaping gases #technology #tlud


Paul S Anderson
 

Dick,

 

Dick, 

 

I have written why the “turtle top” (dome-side up) over a trench is sooooo unlikely to work.

 

You have just recently written about the vertical Railway tank on your farm.   I have attached a photo.   Big.   10 ft diameter.   You used it twice some years ago (as you have described) and are thinking of another attempt.     People can get char from a camp fire or a forest fire or a RR tank car.   But the system needs to be functional.   Large-diameter pyrolysis units have been lacking, and you have shown one that does not work.

 

I address now the concept of the “turtle” (dome-side down) as an open-top flame cap pyrolyzer which, at the end of the pyrolysis time (which for you is limited to 8 hours from 8 AM to 4 PM), would be flipped over to essentially seal / smother the contents.   I have spoken to you before about this, and I remain totally skeptical that such an arrangement would work well enough to be a standard practice.   We have never heard any more after Kelpie’s trial run(s?) with a large turtle demonstration (South Dakota??? a couple of years ago??)   Great demo.   But not successful enough to have encouraged substantial further development.

 

I hope that Kelpie Wilson or someone who was at that event  will join in this conversation.    Experience counts!!!   Why is the turtle concept not being promoted for similar char production?   Probably because it did not work well enough to merit much more effort.   And Dick wants to build one even larger, heavier, and where he faces serious restrictions on his hours of usage of such a device.   Not a wise move, in my opinion.   But Dick is about 89 yrs old and is my senior.   He can do what he wants to do, including flipping half of a RR tank car as needed on his property.

 

If pyrolysis is not complete before the flip, there is not any reasonable (or even unreasonable) way to prevent the emissions of much smoke.  

 

If pyrolysis is expected to be complete in the time allowed, you cannot have large diameter biomass entering the turtle flame-cap in the final 4 or more hours.  

 

I hope that Sue prevails and prevents doing the RR-car size turtle.  

 

HERE IS SOME BACKGROUND STORY FOR MY INVOLVEMENT WITH THE WINONA FARM:   I have been there twice, about 12 yrs ago and last September.

 

NOTE to all, and especially to Nando who today wrote: 

I've been looking for a low-cost, large scale pyrolysis method suitable for people like Dick and Sue. 

 

Me to, and I do have a possible solution.  I have a patent in the works for the solution.   Please see the 4 minute video at   www.woodgas.com/resources    and see the other files about Rotatable Covered Cavity  (RoCC) kiln..   But some of the details are still private / confidential because I do not want to make public disclosures before I am ready with supporting evidence.   But the concept is included in my patent (patent pending status for USA and internationally), so I am comfortable to disclose on a direct personal private basis to others.  (Anyone interested should contact me at my personal email address    psanders@...   and not via the Discussion Group.)

 

For Dick and Sue’s farm in Winona, Minnesota, I have a conceptual plan for a large-size RoCC kiln.   I was there at last Sept or October.   I have proposed a large RoCC kiln with a 10.5 ft diameter and 16 ft long donated tank in the Winona area.    But the expenses of the Winona RoCC kiln project (10 ft diameter) would have fallen to me to pay.   (Dick can talk about getting the RR tank car for his turtle, and his financing of it is not known to me and none of my business, but he never offered to put money into the RoCC kiln.)   So I am being more cautious.   I am incorporating the un-disclosed innovations of the 10 ft diameter unit into a unit with a 6 ft diameter.  Work has already begun.    I hope that it is “showable” by early October, complete with data from initial batches of biochar.    I am  confident that it will work, but better to build with a capable workshop and test the concepts at 6 ft diameter and be close to home instead  of with a 10+ ft diameter tank that is a 6-hour drive away.  

 

Best wishes to all, and stay safe!!

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD --- Website:   www.drtlud.com

         Email:  psanders@...       Skype:   paultlud

         Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile & WhatsApp: 309-531-4434

Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP    Go to: www.JuntosNFP.org 

Inventor of RoCC kilns for biochar and energy:  See  www.woodgas.com

Author of “A Capitalist Carol” (free digital copies at www.capitalism21.org)

         with pages 88 – 94 about solving the world crisis for clean cookstoves.

 

From: Dick Gallien <dickgallien@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 11:37 AM
To: main@biochar.groups.io
Cc: Anderson, Paul <psanders@...>
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Preventing escaping gases

 

[This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to abuse@...]

Hi Paul, Sue doesn't like turtles, (she shouldn't have confused you into 18 tons) but I do (did I tell you about hatching 6K soft shelled turtle eggs, I dug on Ms. R. sandbars summer of '72) ?  She's convinced we'll lose our 8 to 4 burn permit, because of the fumes from a rr tank/turtle.  With all of your suggestions, we must flare or make use of those fumes, because only with a clutch of tank turtles, cooking nearly full time, do I see making a dent in the hundreds of trees Winona torches each year, thereby becoming Winona's Farm Compost Site, instead of another rich person's locked gate show off estate, while helping spread the good word about biochar.  .  .      

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 10:23 AM Paul S Anderson <psanders@...> wrote:

Ray,

 

Your explanation is about the best way I have heard to get rid of large stumps.   You are essentially using them to creat a “thick walled” container that can be partially pyrolyzed with each batch event.

 

I hope all is well for you.   Glad to hear that you are still so active.

 

Paul

 

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD --- Website:   www.drtlud.com

         Email:  psanders@...       Skype:   paultlud

         Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile & WhatsApp: 309-531-4434

Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP    Go to: www.JuntosNFP.org 

Inventor of RoCC kilns for biochar and energy:  See  www.woodgas.com

Author of “A Capitalist Carol” (free digital copies at www.capitalism21.org)

         with pages 88 – 94 about solving the world crisis for clean cookstoves.

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ray Menke via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2020 7:16 AM
To: main@biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Preventing escaping gases

 

[This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to abuse@...]

"The fallback if the experiment completely fails would be to make a bonfire and close the half-tank over it to extinguish the flames."

After making charcoal about 400 times in 55 gallon drums using wood from slash piles, I ended up with some whole tree trunks, and tree roots with embedded rocks, mud, nails, etc, that could not/would not be sawn with a chainsaw.  The solution was to push two large logs together using a front-end loader, but leaving a two foot space between them, and then loading this space as one would load a TLUD container, with thorny brush and vines at the top.  After lighting, let it burn for a while, then add more brush, bark, and other junk wood, just as you would do in a cone kiln.  This all burns very hot, with almost no smoke, and after a couple of hours most of the flames are gone, and a giant pile of glowing char remains (in the center).  Then, several hundred gallons of pond water can be used to extinguish the whole stack.  The next day, the loader separates the two logs, and they are scraped down with a heavy Swiss Hoe, Hatchet, or other scraping device.  The logs lose several inches of hardwood, and the char/charcoal can be raked into large piles.  The ash (not very much) and fines run out into the pasture where the grass grows much greener and is eaten first by cows and calves.  (They really like it.)

After more thorny brush accumulates, and more semi-rotted tree trunks are discovered, the whole process is repeated with the two (smaller) original logs or especially tree roots.

I have experimented with old tin roofing or other scrap steel as a "container" for the two tree trunks, but it didn't seem worth the effort.  A loader of clay works well.

After it is all over, there is a big pile of charcoal, no white ash, and removal of large piles of fine thorny brush.  (Mesquite and Huisache)  No smoke, either.  Often, there are quite a few brands that will fit into my wood stove, and these are set aside to be added to the wood pile when there is no chance of them re-igniting.

 

On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 5:36 AM Nando Breiter <nando@...> wrote:

Hello Paul,

 

Thanks for your review of the idea. I would fully agree that varying char qualities would be produced, but since Dick's use is as a soil amendment, that would be perfectly acceptable, particularly in light of the low capital investment involved.

closed, allowing exothermically driven pyrolysis to complete the process.

 

 other way to allow the batch to revert to a bonfire, and then closed again when the flames had begun to die down to embers.

 

The fallback if the experiment completely fails would be to make a bonfire and close the half-tank over it to extinguish the flames.

 

 

 

In this country, where most urban organic materials are officially labeled: "wood waste", "food waste", "yard waste" and "human waste", to be burned, buried, flushed or landfilled, is blindly accepted by most.  Only fools would be so determined, while finding fun/excitement in trying to turn "wood waste", which is being very efficiently disposed of across this country with matches and lighters into biochar, which can benefit healthy soil and the life that depends on it for hundreds to thousands of years.

 

The price/maintenance of whole tree chippers is out of sight for most..  Logs not good for lumber or firewood (I've heated only with wood for 54 yrs)  can be split,  but until processes are ironed

 

I mentioned to Hugh a few yrs. ago about the trench into a clay bank, 24' W 12'D X60', with brush stacked 10' above the upper ground level, lit on top and when burned down, I spread two 1500 ga. tanks of creek water on it and Sue ran 4 hose sprinklers continuously for 11 days, with a steady stream of clear water running out the lower end.  Hugh said that water would've had a slight lemon taste.  Sue, who has always said "It worked !!", after I dozed it shut, just said the only time there was the acrid smell was when I turned the hose off (which is an interesting thought) in that when the DNR game warden visited in June about a pyrolysis complaint and we can have no smoke or fumes other than between 8 and 4. Might 2 or 3 fine spraying nozzles over the 10' dia X 30' tank top hold the authorities off, while we consult with all of you?  

 

My goal is to mix the biochar in compost and spread it on the farm fields.  If any microbes complain about their residence I'll suggest they visit the majority of Mid West farm fields, that are dead/over dosed on chem's and headed for the Gulf.  The 11' wide dozer blade would  easily make a trench of that width.  When the brush was burned down and I've done that with wet compost, dozed dirt or compost over the burn without the tracks touching the pyrolysizing covered pile.  The pyrolysis fumes will continue, so we could test light hosing; however, wouldn't the toxicity of the pyrolysis gases be trapped in the covering of dirt or compost ?.

 

Eliminating smoke and fumes after 4pm is essential--because I've poked the DNR Forestry Dept..  We have a 1500 gallon liquid manure tank and a nearby trout stream, but a flooded trench would be an impossible mud hole.  The bricks this house was built from came from an adjoining brickyard.  

 

I don't remember in photos of large kilns built into slopes in S.A., with condensate being collected from chimney pipes on the above slope, whether they bothered to burn off the fumes.   

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.  Dick

   

 

On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 8:29 AM Nando Breiter <nando@...> wrote:

Susan, 

 

You might consider sorting the feedstock by size (cross-sectional thickness). Batch similar sizes together. It's like baking cookies. Bake all the same size together to ensure they are all baked to the same degree during a fixed amount of time they share together in the oven. If you bake bread and cookies together for the same amount of time, either the cookies will be burned or the bread underbaked. 

 

When you sort feedstock like this for a batch kiln, it ensures that the processing time is sufficient to transform it to char, while not excessively "baking" the smaller bits into gases. The large rounds might take a few days, the smaller branches a few hours. If the small branches are combined with the large rounds, they will be converted mostly to gases and ash. 


Kind regards,

 

Nando

 

 

On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 12:49 AM Susan <suemegg@...> wrote:

Nando,

 

Thank you fir your reply.

 

Unfortunately, due to the nature of our feedstock size is very variable.  We operate a compost site, and loads come in via car trunk loads, pickup trucks and full size dump trucks.  So we have from small bundles of twigs up to tree trunks.

 

 

 

 

 



--

Ray  Menke

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