Date   

Re: Rocket stove design for retort heating #rocketstove #retort

Geoff Thomas
 

Oops, i have got it intertwined with a bloke from Vancouver, wanting to dry his wet wood before charring it, - sometimes threads just seem to segue into another thread, and the original thread just vanishes ‘poof’ into the night.

However, i got a reply, seemed to be from that earlier thread, but just on the Chip Heater, wanting diagrams with I guess measurements, but the two pics i sent were very different sizes, - one, (the original)  approximately 3 times as big as the other, - small to fit postage requirements, - worked just as well though, - even to the ‘huffing’, although obviously needing less wood or rubbish, and producing less hot  water.
two more pics, the one on the left having quite a large Downdraft funnel, (through which you also add the fuels,) and showinfg a tap feeding the input water funnel - that water going between the two buckets, - (and reminding me I slipped up in my original description as the out put spout is Lower than the water level that can be achieved from the input funnel, - of course if the input water gets too high - ie a blockage, the water then overflows into the combustion bucket, - the inner bucket, so puts out the fire, - touted as an important safety feature in it’s day.
It also shows the flue, - not shown on the ealier pics so it is the balance between the diameter and length of the Flue, and the size - and particularly the reduction of the size of the Downdraft funnel, that determines the strength of the air blast that burns up absolutely everything remotely flammable in the fire box, (the inner bucket).
Next pic is a boring pic of just the outer ‘bucket’, with the hot water delivery tube, but you can just see the downdraft funnel on the right and the oval flue exit on the left, - somewhat smaller.
Somewhere on my latest hard drive there may lurk a diagram of internal dimensions, but in reality, it is pretty flexible, - bigger inside and outside drums, bigger flue and Downdraft tube/cone.
Only one imperative, the input water must not stop or the inner drum/bucket will get so hot that it will burn off it’s galvanising, - - Rust, the reason we no longer see these thrifty creatures.
I don’t know of any limit to their size, either, although with a bigger one I would angle the Downdraft cone to rotate the fire, so it would be good in the common room of an extended family, getting rid of all the rubbish, - including diseased vegetable material, plastics, dead iphones and the like, warming the space, and people taking quite hotish water to their Tluds, so making them more efficient, and also bathing etc.
Cheers,
Geoff Thomas.


On 12 Jan 2021, at 1:01 am, Kobus Venter <kobus@...> wrote:

Hi Geoff,

This is the original post by Trevor:
//////////////////Looking for advice on designing a rocket stove to provide startup heating for a 500L retort.
The plan is to cut one dome end off a steel pressure vessel to create a door. The vessel (Dia~0.8, L~1.0m) would on its side within a well insulated fire box. The idea is to use a rocket stove under the retort until gas ignition is sustained. I assume this has been tested before so I'm interested in...
guidance on H&MB calcs to estimate heating time to gas ignition, based on some typical wood biomass assumptions
design & sizing of rocket stove (will it even be practical heating solution).
supplement with a small TLUD to kick off retort heating?

comments & suggestions welcome.
Thanks, trevor////////////////////


Hi, Kobus and all, this  thread developed around a small user wanting to use wet wood, - True?
KV: Well no it was to heat up the retort - no mention is made of wet wood - although 500L is bigger than most TLUDS. I strongly advocate using a rocket to dry out feedstock though. 

The use of a rocket stove was suggested ? and other ideas. 
KV: The question was around using rocket stoves, which is my expertise

My take is that the rocket stove is argued to be more efficient to use the second class wood to dry his timber? 
KV: When drying yes, but also when heating retort to the point of getting it to the exothermic phase where the rocket turns from heat supplier to air supplier. As is demonstrated in the video by Bob. 

Still throughout this thread is the need to dry the wet wood, although the Rocket stove produces (no/liitle?-) charcoal?
KV: The idea is to dry and then produce biochar from the feedstock and not from the rocket stove per say - thread was not on wet wood

Thanks for the PDFs, looking at it now!

Wbr

Kobus

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 1:50 PM Jonno <jman97216@...> wrote:
Geoff, the PDFs are interesting, but could you send us a cutaway/sectional drawing, or two, please? I'd really like a way to cleanly make heat/hot water with wood gasses while leaving the char to sequester in my garden.

Thanx!
Jonno
Oregon (there's only one, right?)

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 9:52 PM Geoff Thomas <wind@...> wrote:
Hi, Kobus and all, this  thread developed around a small user wanting to use wet wood, - True?

The use of a rocket stove was suggested ? and other ideas. 

My take is that the rocket stove is argued to be more efficient to use the second class wood to dry his timber? 

I suggested adding Solar Thermal cheap input air heater, but that was not acceptable to the original enquiree, - fine.

Still throughout this thread is the need to dry the wet wood, although the Rocket stove produces (no/liitle?-) charcoal?

So I thought about an ancient  wood heating stove invented in Australia/NewZealand/Both, - (let’s not encourage WW111 by taking one side or the other of these two great religions..)
over 100 years ago, - the "Da!Dah”  Chip heater. (I have mentioned this item before on earlier threads).

In those days, Australian/New Zealand  folk were breaking out of the English (one bath/year/week) tradition, it being far hotter and far more humid than the ‘mother country’ to a more one bath per day/preference, and wood was much more available, so the ‘Chip heater’ was made specifically to heat the water in one’s bath,  it was  a down draft burner, - I will try to include two PDFs - unfortunately both are part of my then web page, - not being able to find just the Photos - seems as one updates, photos can just go.. but these were Documents I preserved, from the website, and anyway the accompanying rave is helpful, although please everybody understand that I do not manufacture, sell, supply, etc these units anymore as I only organised 2 dozen, - using donated rusted out units and some old moulds, and it took over two years to sell those so my manufacturer pulled the plug on that item.

In the first photo, - from above, one is looking  down the input air Cone, - big enough to feed smaller (hence ‘chip’) items into the bottom of the burner, - the unit itself is a double skin, “bucket in a bucket” the inside bucket is the burn chamber, the outside bucket serves to introduce the water via a funnel from one side, - down a ways, the water then travelling around and under the ‘inside skin’, to a small output pipe on the opposite side, - higher than the input so allowing greater heating of the water, which then dribbled down into the bath, please see associated articles, but recall I do not sell nor make these items, - this is not an advertisement in any way, shape, or form. 
There was also a (4 inch)  chimney taking the combusted gases up through the bathroom roof. 

The importance of the Down draft cone (contracting in size toward the bottom, - so speeding up the air fiercely) can not be emphasised enough, - virtually a blast of air, and the more combustible the material the stronger the blast, - it burnt Everything, - it injected a surplus of oxygen, and any material would burn and the fire at the bottom radiate and convect most of that heat to the surface of the inside bucket, where it would be picked up by the migrating water in the outside space, contained by the outside skin.

So strong the downward blast, virtually no smoke, - as advertised, old boots, telephone directories, floor sweepings, all gone, converted into heat, including all gases derived therefrom, Combusted Completely.

So what has this extravagant machine got to do with modern Biochar,  ( extravagant in that it would suck in more than it could burn and do this “Whuff-Whuff  thing, quite alarming to some, but a fond memory to newly wedds cavorting in their bathroom, - the things people send you on the Internet..

I would think that this is the ultimate machine for heating water from waste, rubbish, wood chips, some wet timber, etc. the hot water, - low pressure, could be easily directed through ‘eg’ an old car radiator, to the input air flow of a wood dryer, - possibly needing  a small computer fan to achieve the necessary throughput, - but possibly not required.

Interestingly this ‘chip heater’ was toward the end of it’s time a project often given to newly educated Plumbers to achieve their final exam, - so no great machinery involved.

I would think still a vibrant possibility to any third world villages without cheap electricity.

I have one, - of course, I used it when living in the rainforest in Kuranda, - heat up 3 buckets of good hot water, - pour over oneself, - wet, wash, rinse, - no electricity required.

Interestingly, I tried to use mine to kill weeds with hot water, unfortunately not really hot enough, but, in reference to Stephen Joseph’s comment on mixing in plastic, by feeding in that white polystyrene packing foam, got it up to boiling temperature at reasonable volume but could not with wood chips.

Whatever, an exotic fuel, and probably becoming a lot less available, but the chip heater, the omnivorous burner, seems an excellent water heater for a drying kiln, - and you can have a good hot bath from it as well!

Hope the two pdf’s come through OK, please feel free to contact me on wind@... for me to send them direct as an attachment.
Note the first rave was the old size, - high enough to go into a bath, - the later smaller one to fit into Australia Post, - could have been very good for camping also, - very little feed back, most people happy, - one couple not happy, too small, would not sell it back for cost price or even more, so it was still worth more to them than the money, - people are funny..

Cheers,
Geoff Thomas 





On 11 Jan 2021, at 6:20 am, Kobus Venter <kobus@...> wrote:

At the end of the famous Bob Wells demo there's a small clip of them using a rocket stove to heat a retort, with the evolved pyrolysis gases - I am guessing ignited by the rocket - to heat a pot. They used a stainless beer keg. Perhaps Bob can explain more, but the advantage of a rocket stove providing the heat from low quality feeder wood is plain to see:   https://youtu.be/svNg5w7WY0k?t=2241

Wbr

Kobus



On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 6:28 AM Norm Baker <ntbakerphd@...> wrote:
Francesco;

The MC of the feedstock was at 12%. Ambient RH was at 99%.

Norm




-- 








Virus-free. www.avg.com




-- 






Re: Rocket stove design for retort heating #rocketstove #retort

Geoff Thomas
 

Hi Jonno, the chip heater produces no charcoal, only heated water.

Sorry not good at drawing, perhaps others on line have a drawing?

Had all that stuff, it doesn’t seem to make it through upgrades etc.

Cheers,
Geoff

On 11 Jan 2021, at 5:55 pm, Jonno <jman97216@...> wrote:

Geoff, the PDFs are interesting, but could you send us a cutaway/sectional drawing, or two, please? I'd really like a way to cleanly make heat/hot water with wood gasses while leaving the char to sequester in my garden.

Thanx!
Jonno
Oregon (there's only one, right?)

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 9:52 PM Geoff Thomas <wind@...> wrote:
Hi, Kobus and all, this  thread developed around a small user wanting to use wet wood, - True?

The use of a rocket stove was suggested ? and other ideas. 

My take is that the rocket stove is argued to be more efficient to use the second class wood to dry his timber? 

I suggested adding Solar Thermal cheap input air heater, but that was not acceptable to the original enquiree, - fine.

Still throughout this thread is the need to dry the wet wood, although the Rocket stove produces (no/liitle?-) charcoal?

So I thought about an ancient  wood heating stove invented in Australia/NewZealand/Both, - (let’s not encourage WW111 by taking one side or the other of these two great religions..)
over 100 years ago, - the "Da!Dah”  Chip heater. (I have mentioned this item before on earlier threads).

In those days, Australian/New Zealand  folk were breaking out of the English (one bath/year/week) tradition, it being far hotter and far more humid than the ‘mother country’ to a more one bath per day/preference, and wood was much more available, so the ‘Chip heater’ was made specifically to heat the water in one’s bath,  it was  a down draft burner, - I will try to include two PDFs - unfortunately both are part of my then web page, - not being able to find just the Photos - seems as one updates, photos can just go.. but these were Documents I preserved, from the website, and anyway the accompanying rave is helpful, although please everybody understand that I do not manufacture, sell, supply, etc these units anymore as I only organised 2 dozen, - using donated rusted out units and some old moulds, and it took over two years to sell those so my manufacturer pulled the plug on that item.

In the first photo, - from above, one is looking  down the input air Cone, - big enough to feed smaller (hence ‘chip’) items into the bottom of the burner, - the unit itself is a double skin, “bucket in a bucket” the inside bucket is the burn chamber, the outside bucket serves to introduce the water via a funnel from one side, - down a ways, the water then travelling around and under the ‘inside skin’, to a small output pipe on the opposite side, - higher than the input so allowing greater heating of the water, which then dribbled down into the bath, please see associated articles, but recall I do not sell nor make these items, - this is not an advertisement in any way, shape, or form. 
There was also a (4 inch)  chimney taking the combusted gases up through the bathroom roof. 

The importance of the Down draft cone (contracting in size toward the bottom, - so speeding up the air fiercely) can not be emphasised enough, - virtually a blast of air, and the more combustible the material the stronger the blast, - it burnt Everything, - it injected a surplus of oxygen, and any material would burn and the fire at the bottom radiate and convect most of that heat to the surface of the inside bucket, where it would be picked up by the migrating water in the outside space, contained by the outside skin.

So strong the downward blast, virtually no smoke, - as advertised, old boots, telephone directories, floor sweepings, all gone, converted into heat, including all gases derived therefrom, Combusted Completely.

So what has this extravagant machine got to do with modern Biochar,  ( extravagant in that it would suck in more than it could burn and do this “Whuff-Whuff  thing, quite alarming to some, but a fond memory to newly wedds cavorting in their bathroom, - the things people send you on the Internet..

I would think that this is the ultimate machine for heating water from waste, rubbish, wood chips, some wet timber, etc. the hot water, - low pressure, could be easily directed through ‘eg’ an old car radiator, to the input air flow of a wood dryer, - possibly needing  a small computer fan to achieve the necessary throughput, - but possibly not required.

Interestingly this ‘chip heater’ was toward the end of it’s time a project often given to newly educated Plumbers to achieve their final exam, - so no great machinery involved.

I would think still a vibrant possibility to any third world villages without cheap electricity.

I have one, - of course, I used it when living in the rainforest in Kuranda, - heat up 3 buckets of good hot water, - pour over oneself, - wet, wash, rinse, - no electricity required.

Interestingly, I tried to use mine to kill weeds with hot water, unfortunately not really hot enough, but, in reference to Stephen Joseph’s comment on mixing in plastic, by feeding in that white polystyrene packing foam, got it up to boiling temperature at reasonable volume but could not with wood chips.

Whatever, an exotic fuel, and probably becoming a lot less available, but the chip heater, the omnivorous burner, seems an excellent water heater for a drying kiln, - and you can have a good hot bath from it as well!

Hope the two pdf’s come through OK, please feel free to contact me on wind@... for me to send them direct as an attachment.
Note the first rave was the old size, - high enough to go into a bath, - the later smaller one to fit into Australia Post, - could have been very good for camping also, - very little feed back, most people happy, - one couple not happy, too small, would not sell it back for cost price or even more, so it was still worth more to them than the money, - people are funny..

Cheers,
Geoff Thomas 





On 11 Jan 2021, at 6:20 am, Kobus Venter <kobus@...> wrote:

At the end of the famous Bob Wells demo there's a small clip of them using a rocket stove to heat a retort, with the evolved pyrolysis gases - I am guessing ignited by the rocket - to heat a pot. They used a stainless beer keg. Perhaps Bob can explain more, but the advantage of a rocket stove providing the heat from low quality feeder wood is plain to see:   https://youtu.be/svNg5w7WY0k?t=2241

Wbr

Kobus



On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 6:28 AM Norm Baker <ntbakerphd@...> wrote:
Francesco;

The MC of the feedstock was at 12%. Ambient RH was at 99%.

Norm




-- 








Virus-free. www.avg.com


Pyrolysis Omni-Processor (P-OP) #biochar #biofuels #bioenergy #biosolids #sanitation

jeff@...
 

Interesting video was recently released in India on three decentralized sites that separate liquid from solids and produce biochar.  https://vimeo.com/467730252/eabf702e3c


air quality permitting for TLUDs

Gordon West
 

Hi all,

We are engaging with an operation in Ohio to provide a TLUD/boiler unit to heat a greenhouse. The owners have contacted Ohio EPA asking what permitting requirements are required (if any). That agency replied that they basically don’t know, since no regulations have been written for biomass syngas burning yet. Here in New Mexico, the air quality regs exempt biomass burners that are below 10 million Btu/hr - we are in the <500,000 Btu/hr range, and there are some visible smoke limitations.

Since they don’t have any rules or data, this is their response:

In conclusion, I think we would have to know more about this unit, etc.  I was not able to find any air emissions information on pyrolysis of wood biomass on the USEPA websites, so I don’t think they regulate it either. Ohio EPA does not have a specific exemption for this type of unit, and I think their best bet is to calculate potential emissions to show they are below 10 lbs/day.  

So far, the extent of our emissions data is, “There is no visible smoke”. I could use some help in providing them with the information they need.

Thanks,

Gordon West
The Trollworks
503 North E Street
Silver City, NM 88061
575-537-3689

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. 
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”  
– R. Buckminster Fuller










Re: Rocket stove design for retort heating #rocketstove #retort

Kobus Venter
 

Hi Geoff,

This is the original post by Trevor:
//////////////////Looking for advice on designing a rocket stove to provide startup heating for a 500L retort.
The plan is to cut one dome end off a steel pressure vessel to create a door. The vessel (Dia~0.8, L~1.0m) would on its side within a well insulated fire box. The idea is to use a rocket stove under the retort until gas ignition is sustained. I assume this has been tested before so I'm interested in...
guidance on H&MB calcs to estimate heating time to gas ignition, based on some typical wood biomass assumptions
design & sizing of rocket stove (will it even be practical heating solution).
supplement with a small TLUD to kick off retort heating?

comments & suggestions welcome.
Thanks, trevor////////////////////



Hi, Kobus and all, this  thread developed around a small user wanting to use wet wood, - True?
KV: Well no it was to heat up the retort - no mention is made of wet wood - although 500L is bigger than most TLUDS. I strongly advocate using a rocket to dry out feedstock though. 

The use of a rocket stove was suggested ? and other ideas. 
KV: The question was around using rocket stoves, which is my expertise

My take is that the rocket stove is argued to be more efficient to use the second class wood to dry his timber? 
KV: When drying yes, but also when heating retort to the point of getting it to the exothermic phase where the rocket turns from heat supplier to air supplier. As is demonstrated in the video by Bob. 

Still throughout this thread is the need to dry the wet wood, although the Rocket stove produces (no/liitle?-) charcoal?
KV: The idea is to dry and then produce biochar from the feedstock and not from the rocket stove per say - thread was not on wet wood

Thanks for the PDFs, looking at it now!

Wbr

Kobus

On Mon, Jan 11, 2021 at 1:50 PM Jonno <jman97216@...> wrote:
Geoff, the PDFs are interesting, but could you send us a cutaway/sectional drawing, or two, please? I'd really like a way to cleanly make heat/hot water with wood gasses while leaving the char to sequester in my garden.

Thanx!
Jonno
Oregon (there's only one, right?)

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 9:52 PM Geoff Thomas <wind@...> wrote:
Hi, Kobus and all, this  thread developed around a small user wanting to use wet wood, - True?

The use of a rocket stove was suggested ? and other ideas. 

My take is that the rocket stove is argued to be more efficient to use the second class wood to dry his timber? 

I suggested adding Solar Thermal cheap input air heater, but that was not acceptable to the original enquiree, - fine.

Still throughout this thread is the need to dry the wet wood, although the Rocket stove produces (no/liitle?-) charcoal?

So I thought about an ancient  wood heating stove invented in Australia/NewZealand/Both, - (let’s not encourage WW111 by taking one side or the other of these two great religions..)
over 100 years ago, - the "Da!Dah”  Chip heater. (I have mentioned this item before on earlier threads).

In those days, Australian/New Zealand  folk were breaking out of the English (one bath/year/week) tradition, it being far hotter and far more humid than the ‘mother country’ to a more one bath per day/preference, and wood was much more available, so the ‘Chip heater’ was made specifically to heat the water in one’s bath,  it was  a down draft burner, - I will try to include two PDFs - unfortunately both are part of my then web page, - not being able to find just the Photos - seems as one updates, photos can just go.. but these were Documents I preserved, from the website, and anyway the accompanying rave is helpful, although please everybody understand that I do not manufacture, sell, supply, etc these units anymore as I only organised 2 dozen, - using donated rusted out units and some old moulds, and it took over two years to sell those so my manufacturer pulled the plug on that item.

In the first photo, - from above, one is looking  down the input air Cone, - big enough to feed smaller (hence ‘chip’) items into the bottom of the burner, - the unit itself is a double skin, “bucket in a bucket” the inside bucket is the burn chamber, the outside bucket serves to introduce the water via a funnel from one side, - down a ways, the water then travelling around and under the ‘inside skin’, to a small output pipe on the opposite side, - higher than the input so allowing greater heating of the water, which then dribbled down into the bath, please see associated articles, but recall I do not sell nor make these items, - this is not an advertisement in any way, shape, or form. 
There was also a (4 inch)  chimney taking the combusted gases up through the bathroom roof. 

The importance of the Down draft cone (contracting in size toward the bottom, - so speeding up the air fiercely) can not be emphasised enough, - virtually a blast of air, and the more combustible the material the stronger the blast, - it burnt Everything, - it injected a surplus of oxygen, and any material would burn and the fire at the bottom radiate and convect most of that heat to the surface of the inside bucket, where it would be picked up by the migrating water in the outside space, contained by the outside skin.

So strong the downward blast, virtually no smoke, - as advertised, old boots, telephone directories, floor sweepings, all gone, converted into heat, including all gases derived therefrom, Combusted Completely.

So what has this extravagant machine got to do with modern Biochar,  ( extravagant in that it would suck in more than it could burn and do this “Whuff-Whuff  thing, quite alarming to some, but a fond memory to newly wedds cavorting in their bathroom, - the things people send you on the Internet..

I would think that this is the ultimate machine for heating water from waste, rubbish, wood chips, some wet timber, etc. the hot water, - low pressure, could be easily directed through ‘eg’ an old car radiator, to the input air flow of a wood dryer, - possibly needing  a small computer fan to achieve the necessary throughput, - but possibly not required.

Interestingly this ‘chip heater’ was toward the end of it’s time a project often given to newly educated Plumbers to achieve their final exam, - so no great machinery involved.

I would think still a vibrant possibility to any third world villages without cheap electricity.

I have one, - of course, I used it when living in the rainforest in Kuranda, - heat up 3 buckets of good hot water, - pour over oneself, - wet, wash, rinse, - no electricity required.

Interestingly, I tried to use mine to kill weeds with hot water, unfortunately not really hot enough, but, in reference to Stephen Joseph’s comment on mixing in plastic, by feeding in that white polystyrene packing foam, got it up to boiling temperature at reasonable volume but could not with wood chips.

Whatever, an exotic fuel, and probably becoming a lot less available, but the chip heater, the omnivorous burner, seems an excellent water heater for a drying kiln, - and you can have a good hot bath from it as well!

Hope the two pdf’s come through OK, please feel free to contact me on wind@... for me to send them direct as an attachment.
Note the first rave was the old size, - high enough to go into a bath, - the later smaller one to fit into Australia Post, - could have been very good for camping also, - very little feed back, most people happy, - one couple not happy, too small, would not sell it back for cost price or even more, so it was still worth more to them than the money, - people are funny..

Cheers,
Geoff Thomas 





On 11 Jan 2021, at 6:20 am, Kobus Venter <kobus@...> wrote:

At the end of the famous Bob Wells demo there's a small clip of them using a rocket stove to heat a retort, with the evolved pyrolysis gases - I am guessing ignited by the rocket - to heat a pot. They used a stainless beer keg. Perhaps Bob can explain more, but the advantage of a rocket stove providing the heat from low quality feeder wood is plain to see:   https://youtu.be/svNg5w7WY0k?t=2241

Wbr

Kobus



On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 6:28 AM Norm Baker <ntbakerphd@...> wrote:
Francesco;

The MC of the feedstock was at 12%. Ambient RH was at 99%.

Norm




-- 






Virus-free. www.avg.com



--





Re: Rocket stove design for retort heating #rocketstove #retort

Jonno
 

Geoff, the PDFs are interesting, but could you send us a cutaway/sectional drawing, or two, please? I'd really like a way to cleanly make heat/hot water with wood gasses while leaving the char to sequester in my garden.

Thanx!
Jonno
Oregon (there's only one, right?)

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 9:52 PM Geoff Thomas <wind@...> wrote:
Hi, Kobus and all, this  thread developed around a small user wanting to use wet wood, - True?

The use of a rocket stove was suggested ? and other ideas. 

My take is that the rocket stove is argued to be more efficient to use the second class wood to dry his timber? 

I suggested adding Solar Thermal cheap input air heater, but that was not acceptable to the original enquiree, - fine.

Still throughout this thread is the need to dry the wet wood, although the Rocket stove produces (no/liitle?-) charcoal?

So I thought about an ancient  wood heating stove invented in Australia/NewZealand/Both, - (let’s not encourage WW111 by taking one side or the other of these two great religions..)
over 100 years ago, - the "Da!Dah”  Chip heater. (I have mentioned this item before on earlier threads).

In those days, Australian/New Zealand  folk were breaking out of the English (one bath/year/week) tradition, it being far hotter and far more humid than the ‘mother country’ to a more one bath per day/preference, and wood was much more available, so the ‘Chip heater’ was made specifically to heat the water in one’s bath,  it was  a down draft burner, - I will try to include two PDFs - unfortunately both are part of my then web page, - not being able to find just the Photos - seems as one updates, photos can just go.. but these were Documents I preserved, from the website, and anyway the accompanying rave is helpful, although please everybody understand that I do not manufacture, sell, supply, etc these units anymore as I only organised 2 dozen, - using donated rusted out units and some old moulds, and it took over two years to sell those so my manufacturer pulled the plug on that item.

In the first photo, - from above, one is looking  down the input air Cone, - big enough to feed smaller (hence ‘chip’) items into the bottom of the burner, - the unit itself is a double skin, “bucket in a bucket” the inside bucket is the burn chamber, the outside bucket serves to introduce the water via a funnel from one side, - down a ways, the water then travelling around and under the ‘inside skin’, to a small output pipe on the opposite side, - higher than the input so allowing greater heating of the water, which then dribbled down into the bath, please see associated articles, but recall I do not sell nor make these items, - this is not an advertisement in any way, shape, or form. 
There was also a (4 inch)  chimney taking the combusted gases up through the bathroom roof. 

The importance of the Down draft cone (contracting in size toward the bottom, - so speeding up the air fiercely) can not be emphasised enough, - virtually a blast of air, and the more combustible the material the stronger the blast, - it burnt Everything, - it injected a surplus of oxygen, and any material would burn and the fire at the bottom radiate and convect most of that heat to the surface of the inside bucket, where it would be picked up by the migrating water in the outside space, contained by the outside skin.

So strong the downward blast, virtually no smoke, - as advertised, old boots, telephone directories, floor sweepings, all gone, converted into heat, including all gases derived therefrom, Combusted Completely.

So what has this extravagant machine got to do with modern Biochar,  ( extravagant in that it would suck in more than it could burn and do this “Whuff-Whuff  thing, quite alarming to some, but a fond memory to newly wedds cavorting in their bathroom, - the things people send you on the Internet..

I would think that this is the ultimate machine for heating water from waste, rubbish, wood chips, some wet timber, etc. the hot water, - low pressure, could be easily directed through ‘eg’ an old car radiator, to the input air flow of a wood dryer, - possibly needing  a small computer fan to achieve the necessary throughput, - but possibly not required.

Interestingly this ‘chip heater’ was toward the end of it’s time a project often given to newly educated Plumbers to achieve their final exam, - so no great machinery involved.

I would think still a vibrant possibility to any third world villages without cheap electricity.

I have one, - of course, I used it when living in the rainforest in Kuranda, - heat up 3 buckets of good hot water, - pour over oneself, - wet, wash, rinse, - no electricity required.

Interestingly, I tried to use mine to kill weeds with hot water, unfortunately not really hot enough, but, in reference to Stephen Joseph’s comment on mixing in plastic, by feeding in that white polystyrene packing foam, got it up to boiling temperature at reasonable volume but could not with wood chips.

Whatever, an exotic fuel, and probably becoming a lot less available, but the chip heater, the omnivorous burner, seems an excellent water heater for a drying kiln, - and you can have a good hot bath from it as well!

Hope the two pdf’s come through OK, please feel free to contact me on wind@... for me to send them direct as an attachment.
Note the first rave was the old size, - high enough to go into a bath, - the later smaller one to fit into Australia Post, - could have been very good for camping also, - very little feed back, most people happy, - one couple not happy, too small, would not sell it back for cost price or even more, so it was still worth more to them than the money, - people are funny..

Cheers,
Geoff Thomas 





On 11 Jan 2021, at 6:20 am, Kobus Venter <kobus@...> wrote:

At the end of the famous Bob Wells demo there's a small clip of them using a rocket stove to heat a retort, with the evolved pyrolysis gases - I am guessing ignited by the rocket - to heat a pot. They used a stainless beer keg. Perhaps Bob can explain more, but the advantage of a rocket stove providing the heat from low quality feeder wood is plain to see:   https://youtu.be/svNg5w7WY0k?t=2241

Wbr

Kobus



On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 6:28 AM Norm Baker <ntbakerphd@...> wrote:
Francesco;

The MC of the feedstock was at 12%. Ambient RH was at 99%.

Norm




-- 






Virus-free. www.avg.com


Pyrolysis for electricity production

eko.sb.setyawan@...
 

Hello List,

I'm Eko, Chemical Engineer, from Indonesia. I interest with biomass
pyrolysis process. I have some questions regarding that:

1. Is there big electrity production for example 3 MW use pyrolysis technology?

2. How about the volume of syngas from pyrolysis needed to produce 1
MW electricity?

3. How about the pyrolysis syngas quality that needed for the
electricity production?

4. How about to reach the pyrolysis syngas quality or pyrolysis syngas
purification for that purpose?

Regards
Eko


Re: The Soil Carbon Sink at Columbia Ag Park

ROBERT W GILLETT
 

Hi David, 

Looks like a wonderful project. I took the Kiss the Ground Soil Advocate training, but found them to be ambivalent to biochar. Have you made any inroads with them?

Very respectfully,

Robert Gillett


The Soil Carbon Sink at Columbia Ag Park

David Yarrow
 

_SoilCarbonSink-proposed.jpg
final printed paper & proposal: 

Soil Carbon Sink

at Columbia Agriculture Park

In 2021, a Citizen Science project will create Soil Carbon Sinks at Columbia Center for Urban Agriculture (CCUA).  A citizen science team will design and install prototype plots to demonstrate three ways to boost Soil Carbon.

In 2015, at COP 21, France set an international goal to increase soil carbon by .4% per year.  We can do better.

Plot #1 Accelerated                +3% per year for 3 years = 9%

A small plot will be quickly loaded with a full menu of carbon-smart materials to reach optimum in 3 years. Installation begins in March by careful structured addition of assorted biocarbons, minerals & microbes.  A heavy fall treatment will digest over winter to grow strong, stable Soil Food Webs by spring.  Second & third year are lighter treatments with less soil disturbance.

Plot #2 Agriculture                  +1% per year for 9 years = 9%

CCUA Urban Farm integrates carbon-smart materials & methods into normal farm operation with smaller doses & slow annual changes.  Many carbon-smart substances are added in spring or fall soil prep.  Seed mix, transplant media, soil drench, foliar spray are strategies to boost carbon & growth while soil strengthens and matures.

Plot #3 Agroforestry          +.5% per year for 10 years = 5%

CCUA Food Forest will demonstrate no-till techniques to re-carbonize soils under perennial crops, trees & shrubs.  Installation begins in spring as layered surface mulch to boost roots, fungi and earthworms.  Special substances, plants & techniques can penetrate dense, compact clay to build deep soil carbon & microbe ecosystems.

Soil Carbon Sinks aren’t created in one operation, or a year.  Like a tree, soil is a complex community of living cells that take time to fully develop and mature.  Seasonal treatments are added in spring and fall over several years.  The goal isn’t to dump carbon, but to build fully fertile soil as habitat to regenerate soil biology.

Citizen Science is ordinary people doing extraordinary research, often difficult, complex, cutting-edge, in-the-field studies.  Soil carbon sequestration—an emerging technology, unknown to most, misunderstood by many—is a new stew of widely varied strategies & substances, most with a short history & few studies. 

This Citizen Science investigation of sequestration will install a variety of Soil Carbon Sinks, and gather data to document the effects of various carbon-smart materials & methods.  Annual soil tests will measure & monitor carbon and other soil health indicators.  Yields, outcomes & observations will document each process.  Uniform parameters & protocols to measure & monitor soil carbons are essential to integrate standardized data into regional and national certified Soil Carbon Databases.

A Soil Carbon Team of staff, volunteers & consultants meets at noon, third Saturday each month, after Farmers Market, to discuss progress, organize installations, conduct work projects, plan & host public events.

Summer Event: feature Kiss the Ground documentary, followed by Community Discussion on food resilience and the Soil Carbon Sink as climate strategy.  A guided tour of CCUA prototype plots, and a talk to teach strategy, spread awareness, raise money, gather support, recruit members.

Fall Event: Carbon-Smart Field Day will focus on our climate challenge, to inspire responsible human action, and Soil Carbon Sink strategy.  Keynote speaker on soil health, food quality and climate action. Network session for community, environment, farm, food and nutrition health groups.

SoilCarbonSink-sign2.jpg
for a green & peaceful planet,
david yarrow
-Sinks-BidenPlan.jpg


Re: IPCC SRREEN Chapter 2 - Bioenergy #ipcc #bioenergy

Trevor Richards
 
Edited

Maybe ignore my comments... scanning for date & all I could see was from references. Latest I saw was 2011.
How do you stop Academia sending you old undated stuff ...


IPCC SRREEN Chapter 2 - Bioenergy #ipcc #bioenergy

Trevor Richards
 

https://www.academia.edu/25072910/IPCC_SRREEN_Chapter_2_Bioenergy?email_work_card=thumbnail

Maybe some useful & interesting data here.
No mention of biochar and scant reference to pyrolysis. Surprising? expected? disappointing?


Re: Rocket stove design for retort heating #rocketstove #retort

Geoff Thomas
 

Hi, Kobus and all, this  thread developed around a small user wanting to use wet wood, - True?

The use of a rocket stove was suggested ? and other ideas. 

My take is that the rocket stove is argued to be more efficient to use the second class wood to dry his timber? 

I suggested adding Solar Thermal cheap input air heater, but that was not acceptable to the original enquiree, - fine.

Still throughout this thread is the need to dry the wet wood, although the Rocket stove produces (no/liitle?-) charcoal?

So I thought about an ancient  wood heating stove invented in Australia/NewZealand/Both, - (let’s not encourage WW111 by taking one side or the other of these two great religions..)
over 100 years ago, - the "Da!Dah”  Chip heater. (I have mentioned this item before on earlier threads).

In those days, Australian/New Zealand  folk were breaking out of the English (one bath/year/week) tradition, it being far hotter and far more humid than the ‘mother country’ to a more one bath per day/preference, and wood was much more available, so the ‘Chip heater’ was made specifically to heat the water in one’s bath,  it was  a down draft burner, - I will try to include two PDFs - unfortunately both are part of my then web page, - not being able to find just the Photos - seems as one updates, photos can just go.. but these were Documents I preserved, from the website, and anyway the accompanying rave is helpful, although please everybody understand that I do not manufacture, sell, supply, etc these units anymore as I only organised 2 dozen, - using donated rusted out units and some old moulds, and it took over two years to sell those so my manufacturer pulled the plug on that item.

In the first photo, - from above, one is looking  down the input air Cone, - big enough to feed smaller (hence ‘chip’) items into the bottom of the burner, - the unit itself is a double skin, “bucket in a bucket” the inside bucket is the burn chamber, the outside bucket serves to introduce the water via a funnel from one side, - down a ways, the water then travelling around and under the ‘inside skin’, to a small output pipe on the opposite side, - higher than the input so allowing greater heating of the water, which then dribbled down into the bath, please see associated articles, but recall I do not sell nor make these items, - this is not an advertisement in any way, shape, or form. 
There was also a (4 inch)  chimney taking the combusted gases up through the bathroom roof. 

The importance of the Down draft cone (contracting in size toward the bottom, - so speeding up the air fiercely) can not be emphasised enough, - virtually a blast of air, and the more combustible the material the stronger the blast, - it burnt Everything, - it injected a surplus of oxygen, and any material would burn and the fire at the bottom radiate and convect most of that heat to the surface of the inside bucket, where it would be picked up by the migrating water in the outside space, contained by the outside skin.

So strong the downward blast, virtually no smoke, - as advertised, old boots, telephone directories, floor sweepings, all gone, converted into heat, including all gases derived therefrom, Combusted Completely.

So what has this extravagant machine got to do with modern Biochar,  ( extravagant in that it would suck in more than it could burn and do this “Whuff-Whuff  thing, quite alarming to some, but a fond memory to newly wedds cavorting in their bathroom, - the things people send you on the Internet..

I would think that this is the ultimate machine for heating water from waste, rubbish, wood chips, some wet timber, etc. the hot water, - low pressure, could be easily directed through ‘eg’ an old car radiator, to the input air flow of a wood dryer, - possibly needing  a small computer fan to achieve the necessary throughput, - but possibly not required.

Interestingly this ‘chip heater’ was toward the end of it’s time a project often given to newly educated Plumbers to achieve their final exam, - so no great machinery involved.

I would think still a vibrant possibility to any third world villages without cheap electricity.

I have one, - of course, I used it when living in the rainforest in Kuranda, - heat up 3 buckets of good hot water, - pour over oneself, - wet, wash, rinse, - no electricity required.

Interestingly, I tried to use mine to kill weeds with hot water, unfortunately not really hot enough, but, in reference to Stephen Joseph’s comment on mixing in plastic, by feeding in that white polystyrene packing foam, got it up to boiling temperature at reasonable volume but could not with wood chips.

Whatever, an exotic fuel, and probably becoming a lot less available, but the chip heater, the omnivorous burner, seems an excellent water heater for a drying kiln, - and you can have a good hot bath from it as well!

Hope the two pdf’s come through OK, please feel free to contact me on wind@... for me to send them direct as an attachment.
Note the first rave was the old size, - high enough to go into a bath, - the later smaller one to fit into Australia Post, - could have been very good for camping also, - very little feed back, most people happy, - one couple not happy, too small, would not sell it back for cost price or even more, so it was still worth more to them than the money, - people are funny..

Cheers,
Geoff Thomas 





On 11 Jan 2021, at 6:20 am, Kobus Venter <kobus@...> wrote:

At the end of the famous Bob Wells demo there's a small clip of them using a rocket stove to heat a retort, with the evolved pyrolysis gases - I am guessing ignited by the rocket - to heat a pot. They used a stainless beer keg. Perhaps Bob can explain more, but the advantage of a rocket stove providing the heat from low quality feeder wood is plain to see:   https://youtu.be/svNg5w7WY0k?t=2241

Wbr

Kobus



On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 6:28 AM Norm Baker <ntbakerphd@...> wrote:
Francesco;

The MC of the feedstock was at 12%. Ambient RH was at 99%.

Norm




-- 






Re: Terra Preta IP registration

Geoff Thomas
 

It seems there are people who will register anything that they think they can then use to get money they have not earn’t.
An associate was telling me the other day that the new fire truck water delivery system I have developed to give to the world i should patent or someone else will patent it and stop me giving it to the world, - hard to believe that a fellow human being could want to do that but it happens all the time.
I knew a bloke who used to make light shades on his lathe, - out of Aluminium, and registered his business, and patented it as Come in Spinner, - an allusion to a loved game and the spinning aluminium disks.
When the ABC did a TV series on Cricket, that they called “Come in Spinner” he took them to Court for using his name, and got some money indeed, but then when he demanded much more money they spat the dummy as the thing meant a whole new escalation of costs so they decided to end the series at their leisure, - but no more money.
IP is not an easy matter and there seems to be very little commonsense on the legal side.
What does happen though is if you get a name registered that is close to what you wanted before some opportunist tried to capitalise on your work, then that party will not keep paying for year after year when they discover you are registered under a different name, so the name will become available again and you can pounce on it.
20 yearsago when I moved to Queenland from New South Wales, in Australia, I could not use my business name (Advanced Wind Technologies) because it was already registered in another state, (even though in my name also!!) so i initiated new bank accounts etc. under the name of Advancing Wind Technologies, then when the old name lapsed in NSW, renamed my accounts in Qld under the old name.
Of course i was never a big enough business to be worth stealing from.
Even just a Business name costs nearly $100./year these days, - and as for a World Patent, you had better be a millionaire.

Cheers,
Geoff Thomas.

On 11 Jan 2021, at 10:17 am, Nando Breiter <nando@...> wrote:


Application filed in 2013 by an LLC called Terra Preta registered in Delaware. 

I'd be very surprised if this company tried to enforce it, if it even still exists, and that's all that really matters.




CarbonZero Sagl
CP 15
6999 Astano
Switzerland

+41 76 303 4477 cell / WhatsApp
skype: ariamedia



On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 11:54 PM Rick Wilson via groups.io <rick012=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Gerry, I’m really looking forward to your book.  I will share it with the compost and biochar community here in California once received.

I respectfully push back on your concerns about intellectual property.  Consider the ways that biochar and compost can find its way into the soil.

1.  Government mandates.  This is what is happening in California. Green and food waste are diverted out of landfills by mandate.  
No one wants to pay for compost (or biochar).  Tipping fees seem to be adjusting so that he composter can afford to process the material, pay to deliver it to the farmer, and in some cases, pay the farmer to take it.

2.  Carbon trading - credits.  The California government already has a form of this, they mandate that carbon polluters (oil companies etc) implement offsetting projects, or buy offsets paid to the state.
The state then gives money to deserving souls, research, and they have paid for compost for farmers. 
The other way is to create a voluntary market. There has been some progress with this around biochar.  The idea, find a company looking to offset their carbon emissions that Paid $$, give those $$ to someone starting a regenerative farm.

3.  Venture capital, Silicon Valley money.  This money can be used to do product development, pay to take all these ideas around applications for biochar, prove they work, scale them up, and build the needed factories.
Enable free market economics to drive the adoption of these products into the soil.  Build out the industry. 

If you like Approach #3, venture capital, then the VC’s will need IP.  They are going to make huge investments to develop the industry, and they want to know that they have a head start, a competitive advantage, to mitigate the risk to their investment. The open source nature of biochar information presents a challenge to this approach.

Pleased to discuss via Skype or Zoom any time, just let me know?

Rick Wilson




On Jan 10, 2021, at 2:17 PM, Gerry Gillespie <gerry.b.gillespie@...> wrote:

It amazes me that an Australian organisation has been permitted to register the name 'Terra Preta’ as a trade mark under the guise of 'Intellectual Property'.

IP Australia on many occasions have demonstrated a cavalier attitude to their role in the community. They don’t advertise or promote in appropriate media and they conduct no open seminars to my knowledge on contesting registrations. Also if you do want to contest anything it will cost you $600 per time. I know having had many things appropriated. Terra Preta has been around for a considerable time and by any standard should be regarded as public property.

We all stand on the shoulders of others and there is not a single person engaged in the soil remediation business who could fairly say their ‘science’ is unique. As soon as you light a match to ignite your gasifier you are using another’s concept. Intellectual Property is one of the greatest contributing factors to greed and consumption and will be the principal destructor of western society. If any of you do anything in this field register it under Community Commons for the sake of the world. Every bit of information on my website is free: gerrygillespie.net 

I encourage you to do the same.

Gerry











-- 
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Re: Terra Preta IP registration

Frank Strie
 

Hello Gerry and all,
thanks for telling us about this sad situation.

I was not aware that someone in AUS has registered Terra Preta ass a trade mark.
Have you got any detailed info?
I totally agree with your statements and conclusions.
In a previous case a few years ago accompany from Tasmania registered Feedchar TM.
I contacted the IP office at the time to provide information during the 12 month period.
Then I was informed that the registered Trademark R would not be granted, but that the TM on the label could still be used by the applicant.
I told this issue to various people involved with Biochar in Australia, but they just thought it was not important and prefer to do business with such characters.
"Geld stinkt nicht" = Money does not stink , an old (German) saying told me. Just disgusting!
Frank again

www.terrapretadevelopments.com.au

-----Original Message-----
From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerry Gillespie
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2021 9:18 AM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: [Biochar] Terra Preta IP registration

 

It amazes me that an Australian organisation has been permitted to register the name 'Terra Preta’ as a trade mark under the guise of 'Intellectual Property'.

 

IP Australia on many occasions have demonstrated a cavalier attitude to their role in the community. They don’t advertise or promote in appropriate media and they conduct no open seminars to my knowledge on contesting registrations. Also if you do want to contest anything it will cost you $600 per time. I know having had many things appropriated. Terra Preta has been around for a considerable time and by any standard should be regarded as public property.

 

We all stand on the shoulders of others and there is not a single person engaged in the soil remediation business who could fairly say their ‘science’ is unique. As soon as you light a match to ignite your gasifier you are using another’s concept. Intellectual Property is one of the greatest contributing factors to greed and consumption and will be the principal destructor of western society. If any of you do anything in this field register it under Community Commons for the sake of the world. Every bit of information on my website is free: gerrygillespie.net

 

I encourage you to do the same.

 

Gerry

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Terra Preta IP registration

Nando Breiter
 


Application filed in 2013 by an LLC called Terra Preta registered in Delaware.

I'd be very surprised if this company tried to enforce it, if it even still exists, and that's all that really matters.




CarbonZero Sagl
CP 15
6999 Astano
Switzerland

+41 76 303 4477 cell / WhatsApp
skype: ariamedia




On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 11:54 PM Rick Wilson via groups.io <rick012=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Gerry, I’m really looking forward to your book.  I will share it with the compost and biochar community here in California once received.

I respectfully push back on your concerns about intellectual property.  Consider the ways that biochar and compost can find its way into the soil.

1.  Government mandates.  This is what is happening in California. Green and food waste are diverted out of landfills by mandate.  
No one wants to pay for compost (or biochar).  Tipping fees seem to be adjusting so that he composter can afford to process the material, pay to deliver it to the farmer, and in some cases, pay the farmer to take it.

2.  Carbon trading - credits.  The California government already has a form of this, they mandate that carbon polluters (oil companies etc) implement offsetting projects, or buy offsets paid to the state.
The state then gives money to deserving souls, research, and they have paid for compost for farmers. 
The other way is to create a voluntary market. There has been some progress with this around biochar.  The idea, find a company looking to offset their carbon emissions that Paid $$, give those $$ to someone starting a regenerative farm.

3.  Venture capital, Silicon Valley money.  This money can be used to do product development, pay to take all these ideas around applications for biochar, prove they work, scale them up, and build the needed factories.
Enable free market economics to drive the adoption of these products into the soil.  Build out the industry. 

If you like Approach #3, venture capital, then the VC’s will need IP.  They are going to make huge investments to develop the industry, and they want to know that they have a head start, a competitive advantage, to mitigate the risk to their investment. The open source nature of biochar information presents a challenge to this approach.

Pleased to discuss via Skype or Zoom any time, just let me know?

Rick Wilson




On Jan 10, 2021, at 2:17 PM, Gerry Gillespie <gerry.b.gillespie@...> wrote:

It amazes me that an Australian organisation has been permitted to register the name 'Terra Preta’ as a trade mark under the guise of 'Intellectual Property'.

IP Australia on many occasions have demonstrated a cavalier attitude to their role in the community. They don’t advertise or promote in appropriate media and they conduct no open seminars to my knowledge on contesting registrations. Also if you do want to contest anything it will cost you $600 per time. I know having had many things appropriated. Terra Preta has been around for a considerable time and by any standard should be regarded as public property.

We all stand on the shoulders of others and there is not a single person engaged in the soil remediation business who could fairly say their ‘science’ is unique. As soon as you light a match to ignite your gasifier you are using another’s concept. Intellectual Property is one of the greatest contributing factors to greed and consumption and will be the principal destructor of western society. If any of you do anything in this field register it under Community Commons for the sake of the world. Every bit of information on my website is free: gerrygillespie.net

I encourage you to do the same.

Gerry









--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Re: Terra Preta IP registration

Rick Wilson
 

Gerry, I’m really looking forward to your book.  I will share it with the compost and biochar community here in California once received.

I respectfully push back on your concerns about intellectual property.  Consider the ways that biochar and compost can find its way into the soil.

1.  Government mandates.  This is what is happening in California. Green and food waste are diverted out of landfills by mandate.  
No one wants to pay for compost (or biochar).  Tipping fees seem to be adjusting so that he composter can afford to process the material, pay to deliver it to the farmer, and in some cases, pay the farmer to take it.

2.  Carbon trading - credits.  The California government already has a form of this, they mandate that carbon polluters (oil companies etc) implement offsetting projects, or buy offsets paid to the state.
The state then gives money to deserving souls, research, and they have paid for compost for farmers. 
The other way is to create a voluntary market. There has been some progress with this around biochar.  The idea, find a company looking to offset their carbon emissions that Paid $$, give those $$ to someone starting a regenerative farm.

3.  Venture capital, Silicon Valley money.  This money can be used to do product development, pay to take all these ideas around applications for biochar, prove they work, scale them up, and build the needed factories.
Enable free market economics to drive the adoption of these products into the soil.  Build out the industry. 

If you like Approach #3, venture capital, then the VC’s will need IP.  They are going to make huge investments to develop the industry, and they want to know that they have a head start, a competitive advantage, to mitigate the risk to their investment. The open source nature of biochar information presents a challenge to this approach.

Pleased to discuss via Skype or Zoom any time, just let me know?

Rick Wilson




On Jan 10, 2021, at 2:17 PM, Gerry Gillespie <gerry.b.gillespie@...> wrote:

It amazes me that an Australian organisation has been permitted to register the name 'Terra Preta’ as a trade mark under the guise of 'Intellectual Property'.

IP Australia on many occasions have demonstrated a cavalier attitude to their role in the community. They don’t advertise or promote in appropriate media and they conduct no open seminars to my knowledge on contesting registrations. Also if you do want to contest anything it will cost you $600 per time. I know having had many things appropriated. Terra Preta has been around for a considerable time and by any standard should be regarded as public property.

We all stand on the shoulders of others and there is not a single person engaged in the soil remediation business who could fairly say their ‘science’ is unique. As soon as you light a match to ignite your gasifier you are using another’s concept. Intellectual Property is one of the greatest contributing factors to greed and consumption and will be the principal destructor of western society. If any of you do anything in this field register it under Community Commons for the sake of the world. Every bit of information on my website is free: gerrygillespie.net

I encourage you to do the same.

Gerry









Terra Preta IP registration

Gerry Gillespie
 

It amazes me that an Australian organisation has been permitted to register the name 'Terra Preta’ as a trade mark under the guise of 'Intellectual Property'.

IP Australia on many occasions have demonstrated a cavalier attitude to their role in the community. They don’t advertise or promote in appropriate media and they conduct no open seminars to my knowledge on contesting registrations. Also if you do want to contest anything it will cost you $600 per time. I know having had many things appropriated. Terra Preta has been around for a considerable time and by any standard should be regarded as public property.

We all stand on the shoulders of others and there is not a single person engaged in the soil remediation business who could fairly say their ‘science’ is unique. As soon as you light a match to ignite your gasifier you are using another’s concept. Intellectual Property is one of the greatest contributing factors to greed and consumption and will be the principal destructor of western society. If any of you do anything in this field register it under Community Commons for the sake of the world. Every bit of information on my website is free: gerrygillespie.net

I encourage you to do the same.

Gerry


Re: Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

Ron Larson
 

List:

 I think we are predominantly in agreement that the paper in question needs to be repeated at a site like this one below.

I thought that the archaeological detective work discussed in this new paper was outstanding.  Just need to also go to a site with more prominent pot shards.

Ron






On Jan 10, 2021, at 12:46 PM, Nando Breiter <nando@...> wrote:

Thanks for your helpful comments Paul that seem to put this study in a larger perspective. Perhaps the Amerindian tribes got the idea to create terra preta from naturally occuring plots created by river flooding? We will never know one way or the other, but if we are going to create a story to explain our world and illustrate a point, it might as well have a compelling origin.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 7:20 PM Paul S Anderson <psanders@...> wrote:

To all,        (from a retired professor of the geography of Latin America)

 

The  Amazon basin is as big as the contiguous 48 United States, and that is large enough to have more than one “process” of creating the ADE (Amazon Dark Earths) or what is called Terra Preta (TP).   The environments include:

1.  The river itself

2.  The flood plain (the expected annual flood levels are very high):

“The researchers also looked at the severity and duration of floods and found that extreme floods have tended to be higher and longer-lasting, with water levels over 29.7 meters (97.5 feet) for more than 70 days occurring once every 3 years, compared to once every 50 years in the 1900s.” https://news.mongabay.com/2018/12/extreme-floods-on-the-rise-in-the-amazon-study/

 

3.  Sediments enrich the floodplain soils (where rivers have sediments, but the Rio Negro does not).   This includes the natural levees that go under water every year.   When in flood each year, there can be more than 100 kilometers from the dry land on one side to the  other.

 

4.  Terra Preta is not in the floodplain, but is on the bluffs and uplands above the river.   Where it does NOT ever flood.   And where the ancient tribes lived.   As Tom Miles correctly noted, they tended to live along the river (for transportation and fish etc.), but not where the floods would reach them.

 

5.  The Amazon basin includes the watershed from within the Andes (to the west)  and Cerrado (to the south) and the Guianas (to the north).   There are transition areas , but in  those area there are no extensive floodplains.

 

6.  The U-Oregon research was (I believe) in the “upper Amazon”.   How far “up” might explain some different findings.  I look forward to further analysis of those findings (but not by me.)   It would be very unfortunate if some “media coverage” of a research study stimulated any uninformed beliefs that the prior work about the ADE was incorrect. 

 

Personally, I am sticking with the main story of Indian residential and agricultural practices as the vastly dominant reason for the existence of the Terra Preta / Amazon Dark Earths.

 

I remember from some video (might have been BBC about El Eldorado?) commenting of harvesting the Terra Preta and that it seemed to continue to “ grow” (become deeper as soil was removed, but of course not being fast, and probably never scientifically measured).   But think about OUR modern day discussions about soil carbon sequestration and the “4 per 1000” efforts to get organic carbon increase in the soils.  “Living soil”.    Organic agriculture.   Roots and fungi and decay and life down in the soils.   And DEEP roots of prairie grasses.   (and MAYBE deep roots in the stronger vegetation of the Terra Preta soils where there is LIFE and growing deep down under the surface, away from sunlight, but fed by plant root systems.)  

 

Does the placement (intentional or not) of charcoal residues into soil STIMULATE the increase of soil organic matter beyond the mere counting of the kilos of biochar that are put into the soil?   (if you want to talk about that PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE.)   Here we are discussing Terra Preta.

 

Paul           

 

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD --- Website:   www.drtlud.com

         Email:  psanders@...       Skype:   paultlud

         Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile & WhatsApp: 309-531-4434

Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP    Go to: www.JuntosNFP.org 

Inventor of RoCC kilns and author of Biochar white paper :  See  www.woodgas.energy/resources  

Author of “A Capitalist Carol” (free digital copies at www.capitalism21.org)

         with pages 88 – 94 about solving the world crisis for clean cookstoves.

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tom Miles via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, January 9, 2021 10:18 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

[This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to abuse@...]

Geoff,

 

There have been some great explorations up and down the Amazon as described in the research article. Our friends at the Brazilian research organizations like Embrapa Amazônia Ocidental, EMBRAPA Amazonia Oriental,  Instituto Nacional de Pesquisas da Amazônia and their foreign collaborators like Johannes Lehman, Stephen Joseph, Christoph Steiner, and Bruno Glaser have spent years studies the archeology, anthropology, and agriculture and soil science surround the riparian communities. The sites we visited were no wider than 100 meters along the river, but the whole length of the two branches,  and clearly where dwelling had been and are today. Think of communities living along a river. The science and mechanisms of terra preta including accumulations of phosphorous seem to be pretty will understood by now.  

 

It is interesting to me that the formation described in the research is similar to what our foresters tell us created carbon reserves in our forest: low temperature fires promoting carbonization and flow of the carbon through erosion into valleys and areas later converted to crops. With today’s hot fires that produce less charcoal and the ditches, dams and diversions that have changed the flow of carbon and soil we are not replenishing the carbon. The sheer depth of the ADE makes you wonder if enough generations could have accumulated so much modified soil in even 4,000 years.

 

Tom    

 

_,_._,_




--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Re: Rocket stove design for retort heating #rocketstove #retort

Kobus Venter
 

At the end of the famous Bob Wells demo there's a small clip of them using a rocket stove to heat a retort, with the evolved pyrolysis gases - I am guessing ignited by the rocket - to heat a pot. They used a stainless beer keg. Perhaps Bob can explain more, but the advantage of a rocket stove providing the heat from low quality feeder wood is plain to see:   https://youtu.be/svNg5w7WY0k?t=2241

Wbr

Kobus



On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 6:28 AM Norm Baker <ntbakerphd@...> wrote:
Francesco;

The MC of the feedstock was at 12%. Ambient RH was at 99%.

Norm



--





Re: Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

Nando Breiter
 

Thanks for your helpful comments Paul that seem to put this study in a larger perspective. Perhaps the Amerindian tribes got the idea to create terra preta from naturally occuring plots created by river flooding? We will never know one way or the other, but if we are going to create a story to explain our world and illustrate a point, it might as well have a compelling origin.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 7:20 PM Paul S Anderson <psanders@...> wrote:

To all,        (from a retired professor of the geography of Latin America)

 

The  Amazon basin is as big as the contiguous 48 United States, and that is large enough to have more than one “process” of creating the ADE (Amazon Dark Earths) or what is called Terra Preta (TP).   The environments include:

1.  The river itself

2.  The flood plain (the expected annual flood levels are very high):

“The researchers also looked at the severity and duration of floods and found that extreme floods have tended to be higher and longer-lasting, with water levels over 29.7 meters (97.5 feet) for more than 70 days occurring once every 3 years, compared to once every 50 years in the 1900s.” https://news.mongabay.com/2018/12/extreme-floods-on-the-rise-in-the-amazon-study/

 

3.  Sediments enrich the floodplain soils (where rivers have sediments, but the Rio Negro does not).   This includes the natural levees that go under water every year.   When in flood each year, there can be more than 100 kilometers from the dry land on one side to the  other.

 

4.  Terra Preta is not in the floodplain, but is on the bluffs and uplands above the river.   Where it does NOT ever flood.   And where the ancient tribes lived.   As Tom Miles correctly noted, they tended to live along the river (for transportation and fish etc.), but not where the floods would reach them.

 

5.  The Amazon basin includes the watershed from within the Andes (to the west)  and Cerrado (to the south) and the Guianas (to the north).   There are transition areas , but in  those area there are no extensive floodplains.

 

6.  The U-Oregon research was (I believe) in the “upper Amazon”.   How far “up” might explain some different findings.  I look forward to further analysis of those findings (but not by me.)   It would be very unfortunate if some “media coverage” of a research study stimulated any uninformed beliefs that the prior work about the ADE was incorrect. 

 

Personally, I am sticking with the main story of Indian residential and agricultural practices as the vastly dominant reason for the existence of the Terra Preta / Amazon Dark Earths.

 

I remember from some video (might have been BBC about El Eldorado?) commenting of harvesting the Terra Preta and that it seemed to continue to “ grow” (become deeper as soil was removed, but of course not being fast, and probably never scientifically measured).   But think about OUR modern day discussions about soil carbon sequestration and the “4 per 1000” efforts to get organic carbon increase in the soils.  “Living soil”.    Organic agriculture.   Roots and fungi and decay and life down in the soils.   And DEEP roots of prairie grasses.   (and MAYBE deep roots in the stronger vegetation of the Terra Preta soils where there is LIFE and growing deep down under the surface, away from sunlight, but fed by plant root systems.)  

 

Does the placement (intentional or not) of charcoal residues into soil STIMULATE the increase of soil organic matter beyond the mere counting of the kilos of biochar that are put into the soil?   (if you want to talk about that PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE.)   Here we are discussing Terra Preta.

 

Paul           

 

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD --- Website:   www.drtlud.com

         Email:  psanders@...       Skype:   paultlud

         Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile & WhatsApp: 309-531-4434

Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP    Go to: www.JuntosNFP.org 

Inventor of RoCC kilns and author of Biochar white paper :  See  www.woodgas.energy/resources  

Author of “A Capitalist Carol” (free digital copies at www.capitalism21.org)

         with pages 88 – 94 about solving the world crisis for clean cookstoves.

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tom Miles via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, January 9, 2021 10:18 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

[This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to abuse@...]

Geoff,

 

There have been some great explorations up and down the Amazon as described in the research article. Our friends at the Brazilian research organizations like Embrapa Amazônia Ocidental, EMBRAPA Amazonia Oriental,  Instituto Nacional de Pesquisas da Amazônia and their foreign collaborators like Johannes Lehman, Stephen Joseph, Christoph Steiner, and Bruno Glaser have spent years studies the archeology, anthropology, and agriculture and soil science surround the riparian communities. The sites we visited were no wider than 100 meters along the river, but the whole length of the two branches,  and clearly where dwelling had been and are today. Think of communities living along a river. The science and mechanisms of terra preta including accumulations of phosphorous seem to be pretty will understood by now.  

 

It is interesting to me that the formation described in the research is similar to what our foresters tell us created carbon reserves in our forest: low temperature fires promoting carbonization and flow of the carbon through erosion into valleys and areas later converted to crops. With today’s hot fires that produce less charcoal and the ditches, dams and diversions that have changed the flow of carbon and soil we are not replenishing the carbon. The sheer depth of the ADE makes you wonder if enough generations could have accumulated so much modified soil in even 4,000 years.

 

Tom    

 

_,_._,_


--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland

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