shipping containers


Dick Gallien
 

I put this on the "production list", since that's my interest, but no response.
Looking at the dimensions of this, have any of you tried a high cube, open top shipping container set in a 10' bank, so it could be loaded from grade level on top and cleaned out at the lower end with a skid steer.  How long did the steel hold together?  Ever try a blower?
Thanks, Dick

Dick Gallien 
22501 East Burns Valley Road
Winona  MN  55987
dickgallien@...  [507] 312 0194
www.thefarm.winona-mn.us



Hugh McLaughlin
 

The floors of shipping containers are wood over galvanized steel beams. The floors may turn into biochar, the beams will fail and you will have one exciting run with this concept......

Hugh McLaughlin, PhD, PE

On Friday, June 14, 2019, 1:07:39 PM EDT, Dick Gallien dickgallien@... [biochar] wrote:


 

I put this on the "production list", since that's my interest, but no response.
Looking at the dimensions of this, have any of you tried a high cube, open top shipping container set in a 10' bank, so it could be loaded from grade level on top and cleaned out at the lower end with a skid steer.  How long did the steel hold together?  Ever try a blower?
Thanks, Dick

Dick Gallien 
22501 East Burns Valley Road
Winona  MN  55987
dickgallien@...  [507] 312 0194
www.thefarm.winona-mn.us



Sean Skally
 

I met representatives from ROI at the Richmond Expo in 2018. This system is great for turning a lot of biomass into char quickly, but the percentage and quality of stable carbon is pretty low. It basically uses an air curtain to minimize oxygen mixing and to pyrolize off-gases. 

Sean Skally

Operations Manager BRP, LLC

SeanSkally@...

Phone: 540-949-5881 Ext. 1



On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:07 PM Dick Gallien dickgallien@... [biochar] <biochar@...> wrote:
 

I put this on the "production list", since that's my interest, but no response.
Looking at the dimensions of this, have any of you tried a high cube, open top shipping container set in a 10' bank, so it could be loaded from grade level on top and cleaned out at the lower end with a skid steer.  How long did the steel hold together?  Ever try a blower?
Thanks, Dick

Dick Gallien 
22501 East Burns Valley Road
Winona  MN  55987
dickgallien@...  [507] 312 0194
www.thefarm.winona-mn.us



The contents of this message are confidential and are not to be shared with outside parties without prior permission.


Dick Gallien
 

Thanks Hugh,
I had expected to fill the base with up to 1 ft. of lime stone fines or crushed rock from the quarry just up the road.  The front end and sides would be embedded in brickyard clay,  A brick yard adjoined this farm and we have the same stuff.  Do you see any hope of that not folding up, for a few burns?   


On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:52 PM Hugh McLaughlin wastemin1@... [biochar] <biochar@...> wrote:
 

The floors of shipping containers are wood over galvanized steel beams. The floors may turn into biochar, the beams will fail and you will have one exciting run with this concept......

Hugh McLaughlin, PhD, PE

On Friday, June 14, 2019, 1:07:39 PM EDT, Dick Gallien dickgallien@... [biochar] <biochar@...> wrote:


 

I put this on the "production list", since that's my interest, but no response.
Looking at the dimensions of this, have any of you tried a high cube, open top shipping container set in a 10' bank, so it could be loaded from grade level on top and cleaned out at the lower end with a skid steer.  How long did the steel hold together?  Ever try a blower?
Thanks, Dick

Dick Gallien 
22501 East Burns Valley Road
Winona  MN  55987
dickgallien@...  [507] 312 0194
www.thefarm.winona-mn.us



Hugh McLaughlin
 

I don't know, but I know the design engineer never had above 100F in mind when it was laid out, and they have been thinning out every brace over the years.

Don't start with a good one.....

Hugh

On Friday, June 14, 2019, 3:14:07 PM EDT, Dick Gallien dickgallien@... [biochar] wrote:


 

Thanks Hugh,
I had expected to fill the base with up to 1 ft. of lime stone fines or crushed rock from the quarry just up the road.  The front end and sides would be embedded in brickyard clay,  A brick yard adjoined this farm and we have the same stuff.  Do you see any hope of that not folding up, for a few burns?   


On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:52 PM Hugh McLaughlin wastemin1@... [biochar] <biochar@...> wrote:
 

The floors of shipping containers are wood over galvanized steel beams. The floors may turn into biochar, the beams will fail and you will have one exciting run with this concept......

Hugh McLaughlin, PhD, PE

On Friday, June 14, 2019, 1:07:39 PM EDT, Dick Gallien dickgallien@... [biochar] <biochar@...> wrote:


 

I put this on the "production list", since that's my interest, but no response.
Looking at the dimensions of this, have any of you tried a high cube, open top shipping container set in a 10' bank, so it could be loaded from grade level on top and cleaned out at the lower end with a skid steer.  How long did the steel hold together?  Ever try a blower?
Thanks, Dick

Dick Gallien 
22501 East Burns Valley Road
Winona  MN  55987
dickgallien@...  [507] 312 0194
www.thefarm.winona-mn.us



Dick Gallien
 

I'll have enough trouble paying for a burned out or damaged container.  Many are peddling them though.    When I opened a compost site on this farm in 1990,which has been open every day from dawn 'til dark since, with a donation jar, MPCA was in charge of "waste wood", they saw SMOKE and demanded that all waste wood be chipped or ground.  Huge state wide resistance.  Problem solve in 1993 when the DNR Forestry Dept. took charge.  A little smokes no problem, just don't burn our forests  or cause complaints--$5 a yr. burn permit, except for me, who seems to be the only one experimenting.  I can only experiment between 8 and 4 after which someone might complain.  Having this container in the ground, on the backside of a grade, so the DNR game warden up the road is less apt to notice--is good. Thanks Sean,  I have no understanding of low stable carbon.  Is that because of the intense heat? I picked up on the air curtain reducing smoke.  The ROI's size is almost 4 times smaller than the trench I used once, then fill in.  Charring a small pile of brush in that would've been much like an open burn. 

Humanity in West Bend, Wi. received a $10K grant from their DNR in 2015 because of all their dead ash being wasted. A thought--get Winona HFH to apply for a Woodmizer grant from the Mn. DNR; keep it on this farm for no charge, for their use only: Winona has torched 1500 ash with more to come; have City dump all remaining ash on this farm, as the City has dumped an average 400 truck loads a yr. of street leaves for the last 19 yr., because wet leaves don't burn.  So this wk. I called Russ, director of West Bend's HFH who said it was a lucrative business having volunteers make lumber from the free ash trees and sell it through their Re Store, but 1 1/2 yrs. ago HFH Insurance said NO, so a woman bought it and paid it off in exchange for wood she sawed with it.    It is as though the guardians of Mn. forests have never hear of biochar, firewood or lumber from dead trees.  Sorry, at 87, I sometimes ramble  


On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 2:31 PM Hugh McLaughlin wastemin1@... [biochar] <biochar@...> wrote:
 

I don't know, but I know the design engineer never had above 100F in mind when it was laid out, and they have been thinning out every brace over the years.

Don't start with a good one.....

Hugh

On Friday, June 14, 2019, 3:14:07 PM EDT, Dick Gallien dickgallien@... [biochar] <biochar@...> wrote:


 

Thanks Hugh,
I had expected to fill the base with up to 1 ft. of lime stone fines or crushed rock from the quarry just up the road.  The front end and sides would be embedded in brickyard clay,  A brick yard adjoined this farm and we have the same stuff.  Do you see any hope of that not folding up, for a few burns?   


On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 1:52 PM Hugh McLaughlin wastemin1@... [biochar] <biochar@...> wrote:
 

The floors of shipping containers are wood over galvanized steel beams. The floors may turn into biochar, the beams will fail and you will have one exciting run with this concept......

Hugh McLaughlin, PhD, PE

On Friday, June 14, 2019, 1:07:39 PM EDT, Dick Gallien dickgallien@... [biochar] <biochar@...> wrote:


 

I put this on the "production list", since that's my interest, but no response.
Looking at the dimensions of this, have any of you tried a high cube, open top shipping container set in a 10' bank, so it could be loaded from grade level on top and cleaned out at the lower end with a skid steer.  How long did the steel hold together?  Ever try a blower?
Thanks, Dick

Dick Gallien 
22501 East Burns Valley Road
Winona  MN  55987
dickgallien@...  [507] 312 0194
www.thefarm.winona-mn.us



James Joyce
 

Dick I have seen it done with a container in a pit. It didn’t last long in that scenario. Less than half a dozen burns before it was basically a pile of bent steel in the bottom of the pit. They might as well just used a pit like so many have done before.

 

Our first BiGchar test unit was a 3mm mild steel vessel, which we did not expect to last long. It was completely uninsulated, so while being very unpleasant to be near, this meant the external surface temperature never exceeded 480 deg C. Unexpectedly it actually lasted nearly 3 years and several hundred hours operation before we retired this Model A prototype to focus on our newer models.

 

So what you describe might work if you air cooled the outside of the containers

 

Regards,

 

James

 

 

shipping containers

Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:07 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"Dick Gallien" dickgallien

I put this on the "production list", since that's my interest, but no
response.
Looking at the dimensions of this, have any of you tried a high cube, open
top shipping container set in a 10' bank, so it could be loaded from grade
level on top and cleaned out at the lower end with a skid steer. How long
did the steel hold together? Ever try a blower?
Thanks, Dick
https://roi-equipment.com/got-burn-piles-oregon-winery-tries-a-new-approach-turning-wood-debris-into-biochar/

Dick Gallien
22501 East Burns Valley Road
Winona MN 55987
dickgallien@... [507] 312 0194
www.thefarm.winona-mn.us

 


Kelpie Wilson
 

Hi Dick,
I was in North Dakota in April working with the ND Forest Service and trying out some bigger containers for biochar. We used a couple of different tanks and a grain bin bottom. See my report here: 

The tanks were cut in half to make trenches. I find that almost any container will make biochar just fine, but the big challenge is how to quench it. With the smaller trench kiln, we quenched it by dumping a load of damp steer manure on it. But there were still hot spots the next day that had to be quenched by spreading the char thin and spraying it with water. Most likely, if we had left it for a few days, the hot spots would have dried the manure and started burning it. Char holds heat amazingly well. 

With the bigger oil field tank kiln, we invented a new quenching method on the spot. We had 1500 gallons of water to quench an 8,000 gallon container. That would not be enough to flood quench it. We could have dumped it out and spread it thin and sprayed the water on it and that would have worked, but we would have made a muddy mess in the field we were working in, and gathering up the char would have been difficult. Instead, I said, lets try just flipping the tank with the loader. Not sure if all the char would stay inside, but it did! We used the loader to push a small berm of dirt around the edges to seal it. Problem solved.

As far as heat and the steel - I have probably close to 30 burns on some of my Oregon kilns now, and the steel is in fine shape. The adiabatic flame temperature of burning wood is about 1100 C. Mild steel won't start melting until above 1300 C. So don't use a fan or a blower because that will quickly bring the temperature up. And as James said, don't place the kiln in a pit or insulate the outside of it in any way. You need the air cooling. On the smaller kilns at least, using a cheap infrared thermometer,  I have never seen the steel temperature go above 400 C. 

Here is another approach that has a lot of promise - implemented by Travis Peterson, arborist for the city of Newcastle, WY. Travis saved the city a lot of money by charring waste wood in a pit instead of renting an expensive chipper:

https://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/news/wyoming/article_33e335d0-504f-531b-87a1-41a448b70b93.html

I spoke to Travis on the phone and here are some additional details: 

Once a year, the city of 3300 residents paid to ship a tub grinder down from Kalispell, MT to chip the accumulated woody debris. They ended up with too much woody biomass for the composting facility to handle effectively. Travis read the Shelterbelt report that I did for NDSU a few years ago (see: https://greenyourhead.typepad.com/files/wba-converting-shelterbelt-to-biochar.pdf)  and got inspired. 

Travis took a front end loader and scooped out three 20' x 30' wedge shaped trenches in the mineral shale soil at the compost yard which is near the town. He cut each trench 4-5 feet deep and built an 8 foot berm on one end to make wedge shaped trenches. 

His procedure is to load 10 loader buckets in a pit, 20 cy of material that is loose branches up to 4 inches in diameter. He lights the pile on the leeward side and lets it burn toward the berm. It takes about an hour for the first load to burn down to coals. Then he adds more with the loader. There is hardly any smoke except for a bit when he adds a new load. Good thing, since he is so close to the town. 

He works from 8 am to 3 pm and then dumps snow on it to quench it. It takes about 3 dump truck loads of snow to quench the pit. He uses a front end mounted snow blower to apply it. The next morning, he would see a little bit of steam or smoke rising from the pile. 

Having three pits is efficient because he can start a new burn and while that is cooking, he can dig out the previous day's pile and spread it out to finish cooling. Then he takes a skid steer with a rock bucket to sift out any rocks or unburned pieces to get a nice pile of 3" minus char. 

The wedge shape makes it easy to drive the equipment into the trench and move the material. Travis was also concerned about making a deep pit that animals could get trapped in, so the wedge shape eliminates that worry.

He is saving the city money. The wood that cost $13,000 to grind was turned into char at a cost of 70 gallons of fuel to run the loader and skidsteer, plus 7 days of labor. Not sure how that translates to dollars, but it is less than $13,000, plus they got biochar. Travis is using the biochar in radial trenches around trees and for other landscaping projects in the city parks and grounds. 

Very impressive work that should be replicated elsewhere!

- Kelpie

--
Email: kelpiew@...
Oregon home office: 541-592-3083
Mobile: 541-218-9890
Skype: kelpie.wilson


Dick Gallien
 

Kelpie--thanks for the info, but far more important is that within it was Kurt.Spokas@... in Mpls. who I've bombarded since yesterday, with material on my efforts to find better ways to make biochar from the millions of dead ash which all communities in Mn. have been torching for 25 yrs. with the blessing of our DNR Forestry Dept.--only $5 for a yearly permit, just so you don't burn their forests, or your burning doesn't result in complaints to our office and it has worked perfectly and will continue forever, except if you, Tom Miles and a couple from exotic places send The Winona Farm support to Winona's Mayor and City Council as early as possible this June 17th, other wise at 6:30 pm, they will rubber stamp a 2 yr. extension of Bruce Reed's contract to operate the City Compost Site, which he has done for over 25 yrs., receiving over 1 million, to burn most of it, on City land, adjoining the sewage plant.  His new contract is for 55K for this yr. and 57K next yr., which is, open limited hrs., so he can squeeze the public into fewer hrs. for collecting for everything in and compost, etc. that he sells.

Far more important is that at 87, I'm determined to donate this 175 acre farm, 3 mi. from the center of Winona, Mn., to The Winona Farm, Inc. before I drop, or it is guaranteed, for a couple million, to become some rich person's locked gate, show off estate, which is the last thing I want, because it has such potential for making use of the organic materials that too many communities prefer to burn or bury. The Winona Farm Community Service Compost Site has been open every day, from dawn until dark for 29 yrs., operating from only an honors jar.  For 19 yrs. 400 City truck loads of street leaves a yr.,have been dumped here. Bruce Reed has refused to take them because wet leaves don't burn.  It is almost amusing, what a cash cow Winona City Council supports, when if they'd work with me, Winona could be an example of what more cities could do, other than burn or bury. Thanks, Dick



City Mayor and Council, who will make the decision today and don't have a clue about biochar and anything but burning wood, with a little mulch for a photo.   
mpetersonathurleyemoellerpeydenborzmichellewinonacitycouncilpschollmeier

Dick Gallien 
22501 East Burns Valley Road
Winona  MN  55987
dickgallien@...  [507] 312 0194
www.thefarm.winona-mn.us

.


d.michael.shafer@gmail.com
 

Fantastic idea - and, if I may - one that does not require your altruism. Thousands of small and medium sized towns across the US could - and should - adopt similar schemes that, if nothing else, would cover all costs, saving a lot of money.

As it stands now, towns collect leaves eliminating the primary cost of composting. Likewise, they generally collect dead tree branches and even dead trees, especially if they are on public land, eliminating the primary cost of charring. Both leaves and tree stuff are generally delivered to the same location. 

An obvious program is to char the wood using any sized trough they think appropriate. If nothing else the process reduces the amount to chip and send to the dump or landfill. Better, if the char is mixed with the leaf compost, the town can dramatically reduce or eliminate its fertilizer budget, savings thousands of dollars annually.

And, of course, to the extent that anyone actually cares, the program will sequester lots of CO2 and avert the emission of tons and tons of CO2e, smog precursors and PM2.5. Oh, and the fertilizer will not only make the parks and playing fields green. It will also lock up all sorts of contaminants lurking in the grass.

Just a thought.

M

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019, 11:06 PM Dick Gallien dickgallien@... [biochar] <biochar@...> wrote:
 

Kelpie--thanks for the info, but far more important is that within it was Kurt.Spokas@... in Mpls. who I've bombarded since yesterday, with material on my efforts to find better ways to make biochar from the millions of dead ash which all communities in Mn. have been torching for 25 yrs. with the blessing of our DNR Forestry Dept.--only $5 for a yearly permit, just so you don't burn their forests, or your burning doesn't result in complaints to our office and it has worked perfectly and will continue forever, except if you, Tom Miles and a couple from exotic places send The Winona Farm support to Winona's Mayor and City Council as early as possible this June 17th, other wise at 6:30 pm, they will rubber stamp a 2 yr. extension of Bruce Reed's contract to operate the City Compost Site, which he has done for over 25 yrs., receiving over 1 million, to burn most of it, on City land, adjoining the sewage plant.  His new contract is for 55K for this yr. and 57K next yr., which is, open limited hrs., so he can squeeze the public into fewer hrs. for collecting for everything in and compost, etc. that he sells.

Far more important is that at 87, I'm determined to donate this 175 acre farm, 3 mi. from the center of Winona, Mn., to The Winona Farm, Inc. before I drop, or it is guaranteed, for a couple million, to become some rich person's locked gate, show off estate, which is the last thing I want, because it has such potential for making use of the organic materials that too many communities prefer to burn or bury. The Winona Farm Community Service Compost Site has been open every day, from dawn until dark for 29 yrs., operating from only an honors jar..  For 19 yrs. 400 City truck loads of street leaves a yr.,have been dumped here. Bruce Reed has refused to take them because wet leaves don't burn.  It is almost amusing, what a cash cow Winona City Council supports, when if they'd work with me, Winona could be an example of what more cities could do, other than burn or bury. Thanks, Dick



City Mayor and Council, who will make the decision today and don't have a clue about biochar and anything but burning wood, with a little mulch for a photo.   
mpetersonathurleyemoellerpeydenborzmichellewinonacitycouncilpschollmeier

Dick Gallien 
22501 East Burns Valley Road
Winona  MN  55987
dickgallien@...  [507] 312 0194
www.thefarm.winona-mn.us

.