Topics

Horizontal bed kiln #woodvinegar #bees


Nando Breiter
 

On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 12:32 AM, Kim Chaffee wrote:
Do you have a projected date for installing your first commercial unit in upstate New York?  Will you begin commercial production shortly after that?

Hello Kim,

We should hopefully be ready to start testing our prototype commercial unit in about a month, starting with low temperature biochar and wood vinegar production. It seems we already have clients lined up for the majority of biochar production capacity, which should be around 4 tonnes per day, so we're looking to begin commercial production immediately and work through any issues we encounter as we go. 

High temperature biochar production will be added in the coming months. Once we have a fully operational unit, we'll work on reducing the cost as much as possible. That said, from a financial perspective, the kiln is designed to produce a tar free wood vinegar and biochar in equal amounts. On the world market, wood vinegar is worth 8 times more than charcoal in bulk (roughly $4 liter / kg and $0.50 per kg). So as long as an operator has developed a market for both the wood vinegar and biochar, it should be possible to recoup plant capital investment costs in less than a year conservatively, less than 6 months if the numbers hold up.

I've outlined a few potential wood vinegar scenarios here: http://biochar.info/?p=en.wood_vinegar and I have many more to work through. Yesterday I found a paper outlining initial research in Brazil that demonstrated that wood vinegar is potentially non-toxic to bees. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262168973_Side-Effects_of_Pesticides_Used_in_the_Organic_System_of_Production_on_Apis_mellifera_Linnaeus_1758) I say initial because its effect was only monitored for 48 hours following a standard protocol used for such testing. Long term, sublethal effects are more difficult to tease out, but what I've run across is that since about 2000 or so, all commercial beekeepers have had to use a pesticide in the hives themselves against a bee mite called Varroa destructor that unless treated, does what the name implies, destroys honeybee hives. 

Varroa quickly became resistant to the first 2 pesticides that were used, and beekeepers are now on the third, amitraz. There is substantial evidence that amitraz has sublethal effects on bees that may make them more vulnerable to other pesticides ( http://scientificbeekeeping.com/amitraz-red-flags-or-red-herrings/ ). What is clear is that commercial beekeepers lose a significant percentage of their bees every year. So the working theory is that wood vinegar could be used to both treat the mites on the bees, which are very similar to poultry red mites for which wood vinegar has been proven to be very effective, and treat certain insect pests on trees that honey bees are used to pollinate. 

If Varroa becomes resistant to amitraz, and in certain part of the world it seems this may have already occured, then there isn't an alternative chemical pesticide waiting in the wings to take its place. Nearly all commercial hives could be lost in a matter a single season. There are a number of breeders attempting to develop a strain that will kill off Varroa infestations on their own, by detecting bee larvae that are infected, digging those out of the comb and throwing them out of the hive, and grooming themselves and each other to remove the mites. The problem with this approach is that queens will fly away from the hive and mate with drones up to 20 kilometers away, which can and does dilute this trait. Queens and drones can be sequestered so this does not occur, but then that gets much too expensive and time consuming for beekeepers to deal with.

In any case, I've put feelers out to Cornell via the team in upstate New York ( John Schwarz & Rob Draxler at Seneca Biochar Farms ) if someone at Cornell might be interested in conducting research into the effect of wood vinegar on bee hives infested with Varroa. If anyone here is in contact with a university or research team that might be interested in pursuing this, please let us know. 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/07/honeybees-deaths-almonds-hives-aoe
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/breeders-toughen-bees-resist-deadly-mites




 
--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Cookswell Jikos <cookswelljikos@...>
 

Hi Nando, 

Wood vinegar use seems to be picking up here in Kenya especially among commercial flower farms, many of whom are using this Croton Vinegar made by eco-fuels Kenya (http://efk.co.ke/products). It's about 10$ a liter which far exceeds the value of the waste nut husks its made from. (Around $0.04c per kilo). 

We had showed them how to make it a few years ago using one of our kilns and they have now industrialized the process. There are still though quite a few flower farms/permaculture groups/small holder farmers buying kilns for making their own wood vinegar as well as charcoal and biochar. 

It does seem to be picking up in Uganda as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iemTPlACxLs 

Best, 

Teddy 




Teddy Kinyanjui
Sustainability Director



                









On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 1:14 AM <nando@...> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 12:32 AM, Kim Chaffee wrote:
Do you have a projected date for installing your first commercial unit in upstate New York?  Will you begin commercial production shortly after that?

Hello Kim,

We should hopefully be ready to start testing our prototype commercial unit in about a month, starting with low temperature biochar and wood vinegar production. It seems we already have clients lined up for the majority of biochar production capacity, which should be around 4 tonnes per day, so we're looking to begin commercial production immediately and work through any issues we encounter as we go. 

High temperature biochar production will be added in the coming months. Once we have a fully operational unit, we'll work on reducing the cost as much as possible. That said, from a financial perspective, the kiln is designed to produce a tar free wood vinegar and biochar in equal amounts. On the world market, wood vinegar is worth 8 times more than charcoal in bulk (roughly $4 liter / kg and $0.50 per kg). So as long as an operator has developed a market for both the wood vinegar and biochar, it should be possible to recoup plant capital investment costs in less than a year conservatively, less than 6 months if the numbers hold up.

I've outlined a few potential wood vinegar scenarios here: http://biochar.info/?p=en.wood_vinegar and I have many more to work through. Yesterday I found a paper outlining initial research in Brazil that demonstrated that wood vinegar is potentially non-toxic to bees. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262168973_Side-Effects_of_Pesticides_Used_in_the_Organic_System_of_Production_on_Apis_mellifera_Linnaeus_1758) I say initial because its effect was only monitored for 48 hours following a standard protocol used for such testing. Long term, sublethal effects are more difficult to tease out, but what I've run across is that since about 2000 or so, all commercial beekeepers have had to use a pesticide in the hives themselves against a bee mite called Varroa destructor that unless treated, does what the name implies, destroys honeybee hives. 

Varroa quickly became resistant to the first 2 pesticides that were used, and beekeepers are now on the third, amitraz. There is substantial evidence that amitraz has sublethal effects on bees that may make them more vulnerable to other pesticides ( http://scientificbeekeeping.com/amitraz-red-flags-or-red-herrings/ ). What is clear is that commercial beekeepers lose a significant percentage of their bees every year. So the working theory is that wood vinegar could be used to both treat the mites on the bees, which are very similar to poultry red mites for which wood vinegar has been proven to be very effective, and treat certain insect pests on trees that honey bees are used to pollinate. 

If Varroa becomes resistant to amitraz, and in certain part of the world it seems this may have already occured, then there isn't an alternative chemical pesticide waiting in the wings to take its place. Nearly all commercial hives could be lost in a matter a single season. There are a number of breeders attempting to develop a strain that will kill off Varroa infestations on their own, by detecting bee larvae that are infected, digging those out of the comb and throwing them out of the hive, and grooming themselves and each other to remove the mites. The problem with this approach is that queens will fly away from the hive and mate with drones up to 20 kilometers away, which can and does dilute this trait. Queens and drones can be sequestered so this does not occur, but then that gets much too expensive and time consuming for beekeepers to deal with.

In any case, I've put feelers out to Cornell via the team in upstate New York ( John Schwarz & Rob Draxler at Seneca Biochar Farms ) if someone at Cornell might be interested in conducting research into the effect of wood vinegar on bee hives infested with Varroa. If anyone here is in contact with a university or research team that might be interested in pursuing this, please let us know. 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/07/honeybees-deaths-almonds-hives-aoe
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/breeders-toughen-bees-resist-deadly-mites




 
--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Nando Breiter
 

On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 02:22 PM, Cookswell Jikos wrote:
Wood vinegar use seems to be picking up here in Kenya especially among commercial flower farms
Hello Teddy,

Do you know against what pests they are using it? Dosage? Effectiveness?

My father ran a commercial flower growing operation outside of Chicago, this was many decades ago, and he would apply a granular pesticide called Temik (Aldicarb) against spider mites, aphids and whitefly. It required full protective gear. He knew of 2 growers in a nearby town that applied Temik and went out for beers afterward, and died because several grains had fallen under their clothes and were absorbed through sweaty skin. He of course had me applying pesticides for him, and this was his warning that I should take a shower after applying Temik. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldicarb
"Aldicarb is one of the most widely used pesticides internationally, and is also one of the most environmentally toxic. Aldicarb poisoning from agricultural water runoff has led to the destruction of healthy ecosystems and the irreversible poisoning of fertile agricultural land. Poisoning from this pesticide is also believed to be linked to high cancer rates in communities located around the Aral Sea."

I read in this article that it was supposedly banned in 2010 because of multiple instances of poisonings, but has been reintroduced. 
 
--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Cookswell Jikos <cookswelljikos@...>
 

They advise the following: 
ecoofuels.jpg

ecko.png


Teddy Kinyanjui
Sustainability Director



                









On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 4:21 PM <nando@...> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 02:22 PM, Cookswell Jikos wrote:
Wood vinegar use seems to be picking up here in Kenya especially among commercial flower farms
Hello Teddy,

Do you know against what pests they are using it? Dosage? Effectiveness?

My father ran a commercial flower growing operation outside of Chicago, this was many decades ago, and he would apply a granular pesticide called Temik (Aldicarb) against spider mites, aphids and whitefly. It required full protective gear. He knew of 2 growers in a nearby town that applied Temik and went out for beers afterward, and died because several grains had fallen under their clothes and were absorbed through sweaty skin. He of course had me applying pesticides for him, and this was his warning that I should take a shower after applying Temik. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldicarb
"Aldicarb is one of the most widely used pesticides internationally, and is also one of the most environmentally toxic. Aldicarb poisoning from agricultural water runoff has led to the destruction of healthy ecosystems and the irreversible poisoning of fertile agricultural land. Poisoning from this pesticide is also believed to be linked to high cancer rates in communities located around the Aral Sea."

I read in this article that it was supposedly banned in 2010 because of multiple instances of poisonings, but has been reintroduced. 
 
--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Stephen Joseph
 

Hi Teddy

Is this wood vinegar from condensed smoke during pyrolysis and is there any chemical composition data?

Thanks
Regards
Stephen 

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 12:41 AM Cookswell Jikos <cookswelljikos@...> wrote:
They advise the following: 
ecoofuels.jpg

ecko.png


Teddy Kinyanjui
Sustainability Director



                









On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 4:21 PM <nando@...> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 02:22 PM, Cookswell Jikos wrote:
Wood vinegar use seems to be picking up here in Kenya especially among commercial flower farms
Hello Teddy,

Do you know against what pests they are using it? Dosage? Effectiveness?

My father ran a commercial flower growing operation outside of Chicago, this was many decades ago, and he would apply a granular pesticide called Temik (Aldicarb) against spider mites, aphids and whitefly. It required full protective gear. He knew of 2 growers in a nearby town that applied Temik and went out for beers afterward, and died because several grains had fallen under their clothes and were absorbed through sweaty skin. He of course had me applying pesticides for him, and this was his warning that I should take a shower after applying Temik. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldicarb
"Aldicarb is one of the most widely used pesticides internationally, and is also one of the most environmentally toxic. Aldicarb poisoning from agricultural water runoff has led to the destruction of healthy ecosystems and the irreversible poisoning of fertile agricultural land. Poisoning from this pesticide is also believed to be linked to high cancer rates in communities located around the Aral Sea."

I read in this article that it was supposedly banned in 2010 because of multiple instances of poisonings, but has been reintroduced. 
 
--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Norm Baker
 

I'm curious if anyone has done any emissions testing on making pyroligneous acid. I know Bob Wells has a retort that performs extremely well and makes PA without emissions problems. However, with democratized versions of biochar kilns, there must be some emissions. Really curious what they are.

Norm


Nando Breiter
 

Hi Norm,

I don't know about other kilns, but ours is designed to meet New York state emissions standards, which are some of the most strict in the US. 


CarbonZero Sagl
CP 15
6999 Astano
Switzerland

+41 (0)76 303 4477 cell
skype: ariamedia




On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 7:53 PM Norm Baker <ntbakerphd@...> wrote:
I'm curious if anyone has done any emissions testing on making pyroligneous acid. I know Bob Wells has a retort that performs extremely well and makes PA without emissions problems. However, with democratized versions of biochar kilns, there must be some emissions. Really curious what they are.

Norm


--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Tom Nelson
 

Norm,

 

I would reach out to Dr. Olivier Lepez at ETIA (Biogreen) in France. ETIA has developed a wood vinegar module to pair with his Biogreen reactor technology. He would know all about emissions, I would imagine.

 

I have put a lot of time personally into investigating wood vinegar. Completely aside from the emission question, there are significant logistical issues to overcome. The wood vinegar must be protected from direct sunlight, and finding a carrier can be difficult. The largest carrier of caustic liquids in the US no bid a potentially large multi year contract to carry wood vinegar, because they did not want to deal with cleaning out the tanker or totes between shipments. This was 25,000 gallons a week for 3 years, and they were not interested. WV is highly corrosive, too. I placed some in a paint can overnight, and the next morning it had rusted to a ridiculous extent. It was almost unbelievable. You could almost see the can rusting. Producers will likely need to purchase dedicated storage vessels (covered totes or stainless steel tankers). Transportation and storage is half of the business problem with wood vinegar. It is not just an afterthought.

 

Wood vinegar, or pyroligneous acid has tremendous market potential, even more so than biochar, I believe. It is not raw wet pyrolysis oil- it is the purified aqueous portion left after all oils and tars have been removed.  Refined wood vinegar does not self ignite; it has multiple uses, it is low cost, low risk, high density, renewable, sustainable and organic. Great product. I could sell a lot of it if I could get it made to my specification.

 

Tom Nelson

Torresak

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Norm Baker" <ntbakerphd@...>
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 1:52pm
To: "main@Biochar.groups.io" <main@biochar.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Horizontal bed kiln

I'm curious if anyone has done any emissions testing on making pyroligneous acid. I know Bob Wells has a retort that performs extremely well and makes PA without emissions problems. However, with democratized versions of biochar kilns, there must be some emissions. Really curious what they are.

Norm


Cookswell Jikos <cookswelljikos@...>
 

Where does wood vinegar stop and liquid smoke begin? Could it be all in the name https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3951573/ as there seems to be a huge global industry 'liquid smoke' https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/liquid-smoke-market but less so for 'wood vinegar'. 

Has anyone else used it to preserve timber how these folks are doing it in New Meixco http://www.scizerinm.org/charcoalphotos.html


Best, 

Teddy  





Teddy Kinyanjui
Sustainability Director



                









On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 10:39 PM Tom Nelson <tom@...> wrote:

Norm,

 

I would reach out to Dr. Olivier Lepez at ETIA (Biogreen) in France. ETIA has developed a wood vinegar module to pair with his Biogreen reactor technology. He would know all about emissions, I would imagine.

 

I have put a lot of time personally into investigating wood vinegar. Completely aside from the emission question, there are significant logistical issues to overcome. The wood vinegar must be protected from direct sunlight, and finding a carrier can be difficult. The largest carrier of caustic liquids in the US no bid a potentially large multi year contract to carry wood vinegar, because they did not want to deal with cleaning out the tanker or totes between shipments. This was 25,000 gallons a week for 3 years, and they were not interested. WV is highly corrosive, too. I placed some in a paint can overnight, and the next morning it had rusted to a ridiculous extent. It was almost unbelievable. You could almost see the can rusting. Producers will likely need to purchase dedicated storage vessels (covered totes or stainless steel tankers). Transportation and storage is half of the business problem with wood vinegar. It is not just an afterthought.

 

Wood vinegar, or pyroligneous acid has tremendous market potential, even more so than biochar, I believe. It is not raw wet pyrolysis oil- it is the purified aqueous portion left after all oils and tars have been removed.  Refined wood vinegar does not self ignite; it has multiple uses, it is low cost, low risk, high density, renewable, sustainable and organic. Great product. I could sell a lot of it if I could get it made to my specification.

 

Tom Nelson

Torresak

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Norm Baker" <ntbakerphd@...>
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 1:52pm
To: "main@Biochar.groups.io" <main@biochar.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Horizontal bed kiln

I'm curious if anyone has done any emissions testing on making pyroligneous acid. I know Bob Wells has a retort that performs extremely well and makes PA without emissions problems. However, with democratized versions of biochar kilns, there must be some emissions. Really curious what they are.

Norm


Nando Breiter
 

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 07:29 AM, Cookswell Jikos wrote:
Where does wood vinegar stop and liquid smoke begin?
Thermal decomposition temperature and feedstock will have an effect on the chemical composition of the condensable extract. Both names describe a mix of similar organic compounds. Liquid smoke, according to the article you cited, is often refined to enhance particular qualities for its use as a food additive.

The condensable gases extracted at thermal decomposition temperatures above 280° C will contain tars, which are a wood preservative but also are toxic to plants. As you probably know, wood vinegar can be / is often refined from raw pyrolysis distillate by letting it stand for several months. The tars will settle to the bottom of the vessel, oils and water will float to the top, and the wood vinegar is extracted from the middle layer. 

Wood vinegar can also be produced directly if the thermal decomposition temperature is controlled or staged in such a way that only the vapors produced at about 280° C and below are condensed separately. The vapors produced at temperatures over 280° C will contain the tars. If the tar fraction is condensed, it can be used as a wood preservative. If not, it can be burned with the non-condensable gases.

Another way to obtain mostly the tars from the pyrolysis gases (produced at temps > 300° C)  is to keep condensation temperature in the 100° - 105° C range. Then only the tars would be condensed, and the lighter fraction organic compounds that would generally be called wood vinegar would pass through to the burner.

So the elemental distinction arises from the processing and feedstock, not from the name. Perhaps the name used has more to do with the intended market, but the elemental composition plays an important role in the end product in any case. 
 
--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Roger Faulkner
 

I have a long time is 3 history of thinking about paralyzers. I started thinking about this seriously well studying chemical engineering 50 years ago. I believe that a slant bed reactor is the most economical solution to this problem. With a slant bed reactor you can feed product into the dock into the top and remove biochar from the bottom. The most economical designs would involve mining engineering as opposed to fabricating of equipment. I envision a slant bed and inappropriate rock for me so. One has a horizontal access panel at the bottom to remove product. Somewhere well above that level is the area where you add in the biomass



On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 3:46 AM, Nando Breiter
<nando@...> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 07:29 AM, Cookswell Jikos wrote:
Where does wood vinegar stop and liquid smoke begin?
Thermal decomposition temperature and feedstock will have an effect on the chemical composition of the condensable extract. Both names describe a mix of similar organic compounds. Liquid smoke, according to the article you cited, is often refined to enhance particular qualities for its use as a food additive.

The condensable gases extracted at thermal decomposition temperatures above 280° C will contain tars, which are a wood preservative but also are toxic to plants. As you probably know, wood vinegar can be / is often refined from raw pyrolysis distillate by letting it stand for several months. The tars will settle to the bottom of the vessel, oils and water will float to the top, and the wood vinegar is extracted from the middle layer. 

Wood vinegar can also be produced directly if the thermal decomposition temperature is controlled or staged in such a way that only the vapors produced at about 280° C and below are condensed separately. The vapors produced at temperatures over 280° C will contain the tars. If the tar fraction is condensed, it can be used as a wood preservative. If not, it can be burned with the non-condensable gases.

Another way to obtain mostly the tars from the pyrolysis gases (produced at temps > 300° C)  is to keep condensation temperature in the 100° - 105° C range. Then only the tars would be condensed, and the lighter fraction organic compounds that would generally be called wood vinegar would pass through to the burner.

So the elemental distinction arises from the processing and feedstock, not from the name. Perhaps the name used has more to do with the intended market, but the elemental composition plays an important role in the end product in any case. 
 
--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Tom Miles
 

Roger,

 

Commercial version of this are use as gasifiers to generate heat for lumber dry kilns in the US South. KDS Systems, Georgia,  is a typical supplier. They use wet saawdsut and generate 35-40 MMBtuh heat. The char yield is 8-10%. Char from these units is reprocessed and used in turf and landscape markets in the Southeast. A smaller version is available from Biomass Energy Techniques, Missouri. https://biomassenergytechniques.com/ They adapted the old “Conifer” sloped grate burner that was used to heat homes with sawdust in our Pacific Northwest before oil and natural gas became available. The Conifer was supplied by Hern Iron Works in Spokane, WA who later sold their designs and dies to BET. https://www.coniferburners.com/ These are gasifiers or staged combustors.

 

Many sloped and moving bed pyrolyzers have been developed over the years in France, Canada, and most recently in Switzerland. They have been heated with gas or radiant heat (like in a heat treat furnace), molten salt and other media. There are been various means of moving the biomass down or along the grate from gravity to rake systems, to moving floor grates. I don’t know of any that are in commercial operation today.

 

Tom

 

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Faulkner via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 6:15 AM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Horizontal bed kiln

 

I have a long time is 3 history of thinking about paralyzers. I started thinking about this seriously well studying chemical engineering 50 years ago. I believe that a slant bed reactor is the most economical solution to this problem. With a slant bed reactor you can feed product into the dock into the top and remove biochar from the bottom. The most economical designs would involve mining engineering as opposed to fabricating of equipment. I envision a slant bed and inappropriate rock for me so. One has a horizontal access panel at the bottom to remove product. Somewhere well above that level is the area where you add in the biomass

 

 

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 3:46 AM, Nando Breiter

<nando@...> wrote:

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 07:29 AM, Cookswell Jikos wrote:

Where does wood vinegar stop and liquid smoke begin?

Thermal decomposition temperature and feedstock will have an effect on the chemical composition of the condensable extract. Both names describe a mix of similar organic compounds. Liquid smoke, according to the article you cited, is often refined to enhance particular qualities for its use as a food additive.

The condensable gases extracted at thermal decomposition temperatures above 280° C will contain tars, which are a wood preservative but also are toxic to plants. As you probably know, wood vinegar can be / is often refined from raw pyrolysis distillate by letting it stand for several months. The tars will settle to the bottom of the vessel, oils and water will float to the top, and the wood vinegar is extracted from the middle layer. 

Wood vinegar can also be produced directly if the thermal decomposition temperature is controlled or staged in such a way that only the vapors produced at about 280° C and below are condensed separately. The vapors produced at temperatures over 280° C will contain the tars. If the tar fraction is condensed, it can be used as a wood preservative. If not, it can be burned with the non-condensable gases.

Another way to obtain mostly the tars from the pyrolysis gases (produced at temps > 300° C)  is to keep condensation temperature in the 100° - 105° C range. Then only the tars would be condensed, and the lighter fraction organic compounds that would generally be called wood vinegar would pass through to the burner.

So the elemental distinction arises from the processing and feedstock, not from the name. Perhaps the name used has more to do with the intended market, but the elemental composition plays an important role in the end product in any case. 
 
--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Stephen Joseph
 

Hi Teddy

Most liquid smoke is made at lower temperatures than wood vinegar is often made at but you are correct there is no difference from a process point of view.

Regards
Stephen

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 5:29 PM Cookswell Jikos <cookswelljikos@...> wrote:
Where does wood vinegar stop and liquid smoke begin? Could it be all in the name https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3951573/ as there seems to be a huge global industry 'liquid smoke' https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry-analysis/liquid-smoke-market but less so for 'wood vinegar'. 

Has anyone else used it to preserve timber how these folks are doing it in New Meixco http://www.scizerinm.org/charcoalphotos.html


Best, 

Teddy  





Teddy Kinyanjui
Sustainability Director



                









On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 10:39 PM Tom Nelson <tom@...> wrote:

Norm,

 

I would reach out to Dr. Olivier Lepez at ETIA (Biogreen) in France. ETIA has developed a wood vinegar module to pair with his Biogreen reactor technology. He would know all about emissions, I would imagine.

 

I have put a lot of time personally into investigating wood vinegar. Completely aside from the emission question, there are significant logistical issues to overcome. The wood vinegar must be protected from direct sunlight, and finding a carrier can be difficult. The largest carrier of caustic liquids in the US no bid a potentially large multi year contract to carry wood vinegar, because they did not want to deal with cleaning out the tanker or totes between shipments. This was 25,000 gallons a week for 3 years, and they were not interested. WV is highly corrosive, too. I placed some in a paint can overnight, and the next morning it had rusted to a ridiculous extent. It was almost unbelievable. You could almost see the can rusting. Producers will likely need to purchase dedicated storage vessels (covered totes or stainless steel tankers). Transportation and storage is half of the business problem with wood vinegar. It is not just an afterthought.

 

Wood vinegar, or pyroligneous acid has tremendous market potential, even more so than biochar, I believe. It is not raw wet pyrolysis oil- it is the purified aqueous portion left after all oils and tars have been removed.  Refined wood vinegar does not self ignite; it has multiple uses, it is low cost, low risk, high density, renewable, sustainable and organic. Great product. I could sell a lot of it if I could get it made to my specification.

 

Tom Nelson

Torresak

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Norm Baker" <ntbakerphd@...>
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 1:52pm
To: "main@Biochar.groups.io" <main@biochar.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Horizontal bed kiln

I'm curious if anyone has done any emissions testing on making pyroligneous acid. I know Bob Wells has a retort that performs extremely well and makes PA without emissions problems. However, with democratized versions of biochar kilns, there must be some emissions. Really curious what they are.

Norm


Norm Baker
 

Nando;

Wow! Excellent!

There used to be a few videos of Filipinos making wood vinegar and you could tell for the democratized version (which basically means quick and dirty and inexpensive), there was considerable smoke and emissions. It's very clear we have the technology to control emissions but, my question is is that technology available for the do-it-yourselfer?

By the way, I really like the work you are doing.

Norm


Nando Breiter
 

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 11:37 PM, Norm Baker wrote:
is that technology available for the do-it-yourselfer?
There isn't a patent or trade secret at play here. We're simply flaring all gases that haven't been condensed to a liquid. That already gets you no visible smoke, as with the exhaust from burning propane or natural gas. At commercial scale, we need to meet the emissions regulations of the locale in which the kiln is installed ... so in this case the do-it-yourself task is "pay engineers" and/or "raise money to pay engineers".


 
--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Tom Miles
 

In most states if you have clean stack you typically just need a letter permit for a fuel input up to 10 MMBtuh (~1400 lb/hr dry fuel 10-15% MC). Above that you may need to apply for a formal permit. Each state has its own rules. Most small scale systems are between 500K and 3 MMBtuh (~150kW-880kW). Nando did your client need a permit in NY for your pilot unit?  

 

Tom

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Nando Breiter
Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2020 3:08 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Horizontal bed kiln

 

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 11:37 PM, Norm Baker wrote:

is that technology available for the do-it-yourselfer?

There isn't a patent or trade secret at play here. We're simply flaring all gases that haven't been condensed to a liquid. That already gets you no visible smoke, as with the exhaust from burning propane or natural gas. At commercial scale, we need to meet the emissions regulations of the locale in which the kiln is installed ... so in this case the do-it-yourself task is "pay engineers" and/or "raise money to pay engineers".


 
--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland