Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding


ROBERT W GILLETT
 

That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett


Tom Miles
 

Bob,

 

The study would explain the very deep horizons of ADE that we saw in the EMBRAPA sites we visited on an IBI tour in 2010. It would be interesting to see if they could distinguish between the prehistoric formation of ADE and the more recent (4000 year) management of the sites. Yields from open burning grasses is often estimated at 1-2% yield of charcoal. Temperate grasses are often 3-5 tons per acre of dry matter. Tropical grasses are often three times that. The sites we visited were where people lived. Or, did they live there because that was where the soil was most productive?   

 

The formation they describe is similar to the way our foresters describe the movement of charcoal after slow burning forest fires. They advocate managed fuel loads and prescribed fire as a way of reducing fuel loads and creating beneficial charcoal in place.

 

Tom

 

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of ROBERT W GILLETT
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2021 7:29 AM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett


mathuranatha das
 

but when the Spaniards first went there prior to the civilisation collapsing didnt they report  charcoal production being done everywhere ? and then there is all the potter chards pieces mixed in with the biochar everywhere ?   :-) 


On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 2:29 AM ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:
That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett


Geoff Thomas
 

Of course forest fires and river flooding can create some Terra preta in some situations, and humans can add charcoal to soil as is being done now.
I agree with Marthuranatha that explaining the pottery pieces indicates a conscious human creation of That Terra Preta, and the Terra Preta discovered by an Oregon uni specific research unit does not mean all terra preta is of the same source.

Interesting research is being done on Australian Aboriginal creation of Terra preta, and that has no pottery pieces, but rather more likely a burning practice going back many many thousands of years.

The One Size Fits All syndrome is not a reasonable substitute for the Scientific Method, and has the negative aspect of appealing to to the lazy.

I think we can blame modern media practice for the tendency to make huge definitive headlines about any new research.

Cheers,
Geoff Thomas.

On 10 Jan 2021, at 1:28 am, ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:

That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett


Allan Balliett
 

So does this mean that sometimes a pottery shard is just a pottery shard? 

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021 at 10:29 AM ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:
That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett


Geoff Thomas
 

No Allan, it means that if you find millions of pottery shards in a specific area of Terra Preta, it was probably put there consciously by human beings.
G

On 10 Jan 2021, at 5:14 am, mathuranatha das <mathuranathadas108@...> wrote:

but when the Spaniards first went there prior to the civilisation collapsing didnt they report  charcoal production being done everywhere ? and then there is all the potter chards pieces mixed in with the biochar everywhere ?   :-) 

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 2:29 AM ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:
That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett




Hans Erken
 

It is quite feasible in the light of this recent finding that the terra preta predates settlement.  It was simply discovered as fertile and settled on.  In which case the pottery would be much more recent than the soil.

 

Hans Erken

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io [mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io] On Behalf Of Geoff Thomas
Sent: Sunday, 10 January 2021 6:53 AM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

Of course forest fires and river flooding can create some Terra preta in some situations, and humans can add charcoal to soil as is being done now.

I agree with Marthuranatha that explaining the pottery pieces indicates a conscious human creation of That Terra Preta, and the Terra Preta discovered by an Oregon uni specific research unit does not mean all terra preta is of the same source.

 

Interesting research is being done on Australian Aboriginal creation of Terra preta, and that has no pottery pieces, but rather more likely a burning practice going back many many thousands of years.

 

The One Size Fits All syndrome is not a reasonable substitute for the Scientific Method, and has the negative aspect of appealing to to the lazy.

 

I think we can blame modern media practice for the tendency to make huge definitive headlines about any new research.

 

Cheers,

Geoff Thomas.



On 10 Jan 2021, at 1:28 am, ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:

 

That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett

 


John Brown
 

In the attempt to utilize the heat of biochar production, perhaps pottery shards are a good low tech solution.
Make up a bunch of pots and at time of burning, fire the pots in the heat stream.  Has this been discussed much here in the past?
Thanks for all your work.
John Brown

On Sat, Jan 9, 2021, 8:29 AM ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:
That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett


Geoff Thomas
 

Hans, to be sure there is natural formation of Terra Preta, however there are significant areas of Terra Preta in the Amazon with the shards, right next to very poor soil that would not likely support the level of civilstion observed by early European invaders. - there, it seeems more likely that the Terra Preta was first made so that human occupation of a much higher order could occur.
Of course humans are opportunists, and fertile soil is fertile soil, but humans can also make very long term plans and implement them, - or probably we would not have the civilisation we have now.

I saw no mention of shards in the Oregon group speculations, perhaps more deeper level research is needed.

Geoff Thomas.

On 10 Jan 2021, at 7:20 am, Hans Erken <hans@...> wrote:

It is quite feasible in the light of this recent finding that the terra preta predates settlement.  It was simply discovered as fertile and settled on.  In which case the pottery would be much more recent than the soil.
 
Hans Erken
 
From: main@Biochar.groups.io [mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io] On Behalf Of Geoff Thomas
Sent: Sunday, 10 January 2021 6:53 AM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding
 
Of course forest fires and river flooding can create some Terra preta in some situations, and humans can add charcoal to soil as is being done now.
I agree with Marthuranatha that explaining the pottery pieces indicates a conscious human creation of That Terra Preta, and the Terra Preta discovered by an Oregon uni specific research unit does not mean all terra preta is of the same source.
 
Interesting research is being done on Australian Aboriginal creation of Terra preta, and that has no pottery pieces, but rather more likely a burning practice going back many many thousands of years.
 
The One Size Fits All syndrome is not a reasonable substitute for the Scientific Method, and has the negative aspect of appealing to to the lazy.
 
I think we can blame modern media practice for the tendency to make huge definitive headlines about any new research.
 
Cheers,
Geoff Thomas.


On 10 Jan 2021, at 1:28 am, ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:
 
That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett 
 



Tom Miles
 

There was a finding several years ago that the low temperature pottery absorbed phosphorous which was presumed to be from the fish or other food they ate before discarding the pottery.

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hans Erken
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2021 1:21 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

It is quite feasible in the light of this recent finding that the terra preta predates settlement.  It was simply discovered as fertile and settled on.  In which case the pottery would be much more recent than the soil.

 

Hans Erken

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io [mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io] On Behalf Of Geoff Thomas
Sent: Sunday, 10 January 2021 6:53 AM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

Of course forest fires and river flooding can create some Terra preta in some situations, and humans can add charcoal to soil as is being done now.

I agree with Marthuranatha that explaining the pottery pieces indicates a conscious human creation of That Terra Preta, and the Terra Preta discovered by an Oregon uni specific research unit does not mean all terra preta is of the same source.

 

Interesting research is being done on Australian Aboriginal creation of Terra preta, and that has no pottery pieces, but rather more likely a burning practice going back many many thousands of years.

 

The One Size Fits All syndrome is not a reasonable substitute for the Scientific Method, and has the negative aspect of appealing to to the lazy.

 

I think we can blame modern media practice for the tendency to make huge definitive headlines about any new research.

 

Cheers,

Geoff Thomas.

 

On 10 Jan 2021, at 1:28 am, ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:

 

That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett

 


Geoff Thomas
 

Hi Tom. good thought, I always assumed that the pots were used (anybody who goes to India would understand that Pots are everywhere, used as we would use plastic or paper wrappings, glass or plastic containers) to remove the rubbish fron the cities, - sewerage, food scraps, and the like, - they often had no sewerage as they did not need it using Pots (we used to have the ‘night Man’ a council employed service to remove sewerage in large steel containers, (aka Pots) when I was young).

Those South American cities were very hierarchical and stratified, effectively a slave class to make cheap pots (No doubt ruled by an iron thumb by the Priest class, ) and fill them and take them out to the designated fields and no doubt smash them on the already existing pots, so those pots would have picked up every waste human element, and returned it to the soil, - including everyones kitchen fire detritus etc. - That tropical environment needs careful nutrient management and they had big cities!, - it is to my mind useless to speculate that they didn’t know what they were doing, most of those cultures survived much longer than eg American Democracy has, (assuming it has not ended :).
However I find the thought that those folks had some special treat, - maybe some food from far away, - rather charming, - perhaps that family rejoiced in a wonderful new taste experience, and yet thought it would also add to the community mineral resource, - in a nice way.

Sorry if I misinterpret what you said, Tom, if, but it gave to me an imagination of a  human flavour of all that time ago when whole peoples were maybe making Biochar as part of their survival and happiness.

Quite made my day, Thank you. Geoff Thomas.

On 10 Jan 2021, at 7:50 am, Tom Miles <tmiles@...> wrote:

There was a finding several years ago that the low temperature pottery absorbed phosphorous which was presumed to be from the fish or other food they ate before discarding the pottery. 
 
From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hans Erken
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2021 1:21 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding
 
It is quite feasible in the light of this recent finding that the terra preta predates settlement.  It was simply discovered as fertile and settled on.  In which case the pottery would be much more recent than the soil.
 
Hans Erken
 
From: main@Biochar.groups.io [mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io] On Behalf Of Geoff Thomas
Sent: Sunday, 10 January 2021 6:53 AM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding
 
Of course forest fires and river flooding can create some Terra preta in some situations, and humans can add charcoal to soil as is being done now.
I agree with Marthuranatha that explaining the pottery pieces indicates a conscious human creation of That Terra Preta, and the Terra Preta discovered by an Oregon uni specific research unit does not mean all terra preta is of the same source.
 
Interesting research is being done on Australian Aboriginal creation of Terra preta, and that has no pottery pieces, but rather more likely a burning practice going back many many thousands of years.
 
The One Size Fits All syndrome is not a reasonable substitute for the Scientific Method, and has the negative aspect of appealing to to the lazy.
 
I think we can blame modern media practice for the tendency to make huge definitive headlines about any new research.
 
Cheers,
Geoff Thomas.

 

On 10 Jan 2021, at 1:28 am, ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:
 
That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett 
 



Stephen Joseph
 

Here we go how some indigenous people made fertile soils/  If you read Christoph Steiners thesis you will see the Amazonian Indians still make a biochar organomineral product that contains charcoal ash etc.  See the amazonian section  of the BBC documentary around the world in 80 Gardens.

I start off all my training programs with this.
Stephen

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 1:35 PM Geoff Thomas <wind@...> wrote:
Hi Tom. good thought, I always assumed that the pots were used (anybody who goes to India would understand that Pots are everywhere, used as we would use plastic or paper wrappings, glass or plastic containers) to remove the rubbish fron the cities, - sewerage, food scraps, and the like, - they often had no sewerage as they did not need it using Pots (we used to have the ‘night Man’ a council employed service to remove sewerage in large steel containers, (aka Pots) when I was young).

Those South American cities were very hierarchical and stratified, effectively a slave class to make cheap pots (No doubt ruled by an iron thumb by the Priest class, ) and fill them and take them out to the designated fields and no doubt smash them on the already existing pots, so those pots would have picked up every waste human element, and returned it to the soil, - including everyones kitchen fire detritus etc. - That tropical environment needs careful nutrient management and they had big cities!, - it is to my mind useless to speculate that they didn’t know what they were doing, most of those cultures survived much longer than eg American Democracy has, (assuming it has not ended :).
However I find the thought that those folks had some special treat, - maybe some food from far away, - rather charming, - perhaps that family rejoiced in a wonderful new taste experience, and yet thought it would also add to the community mineral resource, - in a nice way.

Sorry if I misinterpret what you said, Tom, if, but it gave to me an imagination of a  human flavour of all that time ago when whole peoples were maybe making Biochar as part of their survival and happiness.

Quite made my day, Thank you. Geoff Thomas.

On 10 Jan 2021, at 7:50 am, Tom Miles <tmiles@...> wrote:

There was a finding several years ago that the low temperature pottery absorbed phosphorous which was presumed to be from the fish or other food they ate before discarding the pottery. 
 
From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hans Erken
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2021 1:21 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding
 
It is quite feasible in the light of this recent finding that the terra preta predates settlement.  It was simply discovered as fertile and settled on.  In which case the pottery would be much more recent than the soil.
 
Hans Erken
 
From: main@Biochar.groups.io [mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io] On Behalf Of Geoff Thomas
Sent: Sunday, 10 January 2021 6:53 AM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding
 
Of course forest fires and river flooding can create some Terra preta in some situations, and humans can add charcoal to soil as is being done now.
I agree with Marthuranatha that explaining the pottery pieces indicates a conscious human creation of That Terra Preta, and the Terra Preta discovered by an Oregon uni specific research unit does not mean all terra preta is of the same source.
 
Interesting research is being done on Australian Aboriginal creation of Terra preta, and that has no pottery pieces, but rather more likely a burning practice going back many many thousands of years.
 
The One Size Fits All syndrome is not a reasonable substitute for the Scientific Method, and has the negative aspect of appealing to to the lazy.
 
I think we can blame modern media practice for the tendency to make huge definitive headlines about any new research.
 
Cheers,
Geoff Thomas.

 

On 10 Jan 2021, at 1:28 am, ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:
 
That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett 
 



Tom Miles
 

Geoff,

 

There have been some great explorations up and down the Amazon as described in the research article. Our friends at the Brazilian research organizations like Embrapa Amazônia Ocidental, EMBRAPA Amazonia Oriental,  Instituto Nacional de Pesquisas da Amazônia and their foreign collaborators like Johannes Lehman, Stephen Joseph, Christoph Steiner, and Bruno Glaser have spent years studies the archeology, anthropology, and agriculture and soil science surround the riparian communities. The sites we visited were no wider than 100 meters along the river, but the whole length of the two branches,  and clearly where dwelling had been and are today. Think of communities living along a river. The science and mechanisms of terra preta including accumulations of phosphorous seem to be pretty will understood by now.  

 

It is interesting to me that the formation described in the research is similar to what our foresters tell us created carbon reserves in our forest: low temperature fires promoting carbonization and flow of the carbon through erosion into valleys and areas later converted to crops. With today’s hot fires that produce less charcoal and the ditches, dams and diversions that have changed the flow of carbon and soil we are not replenishing the carbon. The sheer depth of the ADE makes you wonder if enough generations could have accumulated so much modified soil in even 4,000 years.

 

Tom    

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Geoff Thomas
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2021 6:35 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

Hi Tom. good thought, I always assumed that the pots were used (anybody who goes to India would understand that Pots are everywhere, used as we would use plastic or paper wrappings, glass or plastic containers) to remove the rubbish fron the cities, - sewerage, food scraps, and the like, - they often had no sewerage as they did not need it using Pots (we used to have the ‘night Man’ a council employed service to remove sewerage in large steel containers, (aka Pots) when I was young).

 

Those South American cities were very hierarchical and stratified, effectively a slave class to make cheap pots (No doubt ruled by an iron thumb by the Priest class, ) and fill them and take them out to the designated fields and no doubt smash them on the already existing pots, so those pots would have picked up every waste human element, and returned it to the soil, - including everyones kitchen fire detritus etc. - That tropical environment needs careful nutrient management and they had big cities!, - it is to my mind useless to speculate that they didn’t know what they were doing, most of those cultures survived much longer than eg American Democracy has, (assuming it has not ended :).

However I find the thought that those folks had some special treat, - maybe some food from far away, - rather charming, - perhaps that family rejoiced in a wonderful new taste experience, and yet thought it would also add to the community mineral resource, - in a nice way.

 

Sorry if I misinterpret what you said, Tom, if, but it gave to me an imagination of a  human flavour of all that time ago when whole peoples were maybe making Biochar as part of their survival and happiness.

 

Quite made my day, Thank you. Geoff Thomas.

 

On 10 Jan 2021, at 7:50 am, Tom Miles <tmiles@...> wrote:

 

There was a finding several years ago that the low temperature pottery absorbed phosphorous which was presumed to be from the fish or other food they ate before discarding the pottery. 

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hans Erken
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2021 1:21 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

It is quite feasible in the light of this recent finding that the terra preta predates settlement.  It was simply discovered as fertile and settled on.  In which case the pottery would be much more recent than the soil.

 

Hans Erken

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io [mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io] On Behalf Of Geoff Thomas
Sent: Sunday, 10 January 2021 6:53 AM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

Of course forest fires and river flooding can create some Terra preta in some situations, and humans can add charcoal to soil as is being done now.

I agree with Marthuranatha that explaining the pottery pieces indicates a conscious human creation of That Terra Preta, and the Terra Preta discovered by an Oregon uni specific research unit does not mean all terra preta is of the same source.

 

Interesting research is being done on Australian Aboriginal creation of Terra preta, and that has no pottery pieces, but rather more likely a burning practice going back many many thousands of years.

 

The One Size Fits All syndrome is not a reasonable substitute for the Scientific Method, and has the negative aspect of appealing to to the lazy.

 

I think we can blame modern media practice for the tendency to make huge definitive headlines about any new research.

 

Cheers,

Geoff Thomas.

 

On 10 Jan 2021, at 1:28 am, ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:

 

That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett 

 

 


Tom Miles
 

Nice

T R Miles Technical Consultants Inc.
tmiles@...
Sent from mobile. 

On Jan 9, 2021, at 8:17 PM, Tom Miles <tmiles@...> wrote:



Geoff,

 

There have been some great explorations up and down the Amazon as described in the research article. Our friends at the Brazilian research organizations like Embrapa Amazônia Ocidental, EMBRAPA Amazonia Oriental,  Instituto Nacional de Pesquisas da Amazônia and their foreign collaborators like Johannes Lehman, Stephen Joseph, Christoph Steiner, and Bruno Glaser have spent years studies the archeology, anthropology, and agriculture and soil science surround the riparian communities. The sites we visited were no wider than 100 meters along the river, but the whole length of the two branches,  and clearly where dwelling had been and are today. Think of communities living along a river. The science and mechanisms of terra preta including accumulations of phosphorous seem to be pretty will understood by now.  

 

It is interesting to me that the formation described in the research is similar to what our foresters tell us created carbon reserves in our forest: low temperature fires promoting carbonization and flow of the carbon through erosion into valleys and areas later converted to crops. With today’s hot fires that produce less charcoal and the ditches, dams and diversions that have changed the flow of carbon and soil we are not replenishing the carbon. The sheer depth of the ADE makes you wonder if enough generations could have accumulated so much modified soil in even 4,000 years.

 

Tom    

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Geoff Thomas
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2021 6:35 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

Hi Tom. good thought, I always assumed that the pots were used (anybody who goes to India would understand that Pots are everywhere, used as we would use plastic or paper wrappings, glass or plastic containers) to remove the rubbish fron the cities, - sewerage, food scraps, and the like, - they often had no sewerage as they did not need it using Pots (we used to have the ‘night Man’ a council employed service to remove sewerage in large steel containers, (aka Pots) when I was young).

 

Those South American cities were very hierarchical and stratified, effectively a slave class to make cheap pots (No doubt ruled by an iron thumb by the Priest class, ) and fill them and take them out to the designated fields and no doubt smash them on the already existing pots, so those pots would have picked up every waste human element, and returned it to the soil, - including everyones kitchen fire detritus etc. - That tropical environment needs careful nutrient management and they had big cities!, - it is to my mind useless to speculate that they didn’t know what they were doing, most of those cultures survived much longer than eg American Democracy has, (assuming it has not ended :).

However I find the thought that those folks had some special treat, - maybe some food from far away, - rather charming, - perhaps that family rejoiced in a wonderful new taste experience, and yet thought it would also add to the community mineral resource, - in a nice way.

 

Sorry if I misinterpret what you said, Tom, if, but it gave to me an imagination of a  human flavour of all that time ago when whole peoples were maybe making Biochar as part of their survival and happiness.

 

Quite made my day, Thank you. Geoff Thomas.

 

On 10 Jan 2021, at 7:50 am, Tom Miles <tmiles@...> wrote:

 

There was a finding several years ago that the low temperature pottery absorbed phosphorous which was presumed to be from the fish or other food they ate before discarding the pottery. 

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Hans Erken
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2021 1:21 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

It is quite feasible in the light of this recent finding that the terra preta predates settlement.  It was simply discovered as fertile and settled on.  In which case the pottery would be much more recent than the soil.

 

Hans Erken

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io [mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io] On Behalf Of Geoff Thomas
Sent: Sunday, 10 January 2021 6:53 AM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

Of course forest fires and river flooding can create some Terra preta in some situations, and humans can add charcoal to soil as is being done now.

I agree with Marthuranatha that explaining the pottery pieces indicates a conscious human creation of That Terra Preta, and the Terra Preta discovered by an Oregon uni specific research unit does not mean all terra preta is of the same source.

 

Interesting research is being done on Australian Aboriginal creation of Terra preta, and that has no pottery pieces, but rather more likely a burning practice going back many many thousands of years.

 

The One Size Fits All syndrome is not a reasonable substitute for the Scientific Method, and has the negative aspect of appealing to to the lazy.

 

I think we can blame modern media practice for the tendency to make huge definitive headlines about any new research.

 

Cheers,

Geoff Thomas.

 

On 10 Jan 2021, at 1:28 am, ROBERT W GILLETT <themarvalus.wabio@...> wrote:

 

That is the conclusion of researchers who dated elements found in sites in the upper Amazon region. It shouldn't trouble us if they are correct, since we already have discovered how to use the mechanism of fire to imitate nature. The authors seem to say that their discovery implies that authorities should alter the way land is managed in such regions to bring about more Terra Preta the old-fashioned way.

Robert Gillett 

 

 


Paul S Anderson
 

To all,        (from a retired professor of the geography of Latin America)

 

The  Amazon basin is as big as the contiguous 48 United States, and that is large enough to have more than one “process” of creating the ADE (Amazon Dark Earths) or what is called Terra Preta (TP).   The environments include:

1.  The river itself

2.  The flood plain (the expected annual flood levels are very high):

“The researchers also looked at the severity and duration of floods and found that extreme floods have tended to be higher and longer-lasting, with water levels over 29.7 meters (97.5 feet) for more than 70 days occurring once every 3 years, compared to once every 50 years in the 1900s.” https://news.mongabay.com/2018/12/extreme-floods-on-the-rise-in-the-amazon-study/

 

3.  Sediments enrich the floodplain soils (where rivers have sediments, but the Rio Negro does not).   This includes the natural levees that go under water every year.   When in flood each year, there can be more than 100 kilometers from the dry land on one side to the  other.

 

4.  Terra Preta is not in the floodplain, but is on the bluffs and uplands above the river.   Where it does NOT ever flood.   And where the ancient tribes lived.   As Tom Miles correctly noted, they tended to live along the river (for transportation and fish etc.), but not where the floods would reach them.

 

5.  The Amazon basin includes the watershed from within the Andes (to the west)  and Cerrado (to the south) and the Guianas (to the north).   There are transition areas , but in  those area there are no extensive floodplains.

 

6.  The U-Oregon research was (I believe) in the “upper Amazon”.   How far “up” might explain some different findings.  I look forward to further analysis of those findings (but not by me.)   It would be very unfortunate if some “media coverage” of a research study stimulated any uninformed beliefs that the prior work about the ADE was incorrect. 

 

Personally, I am sticking with the main story of Indian residential and agricultural practices as the vastly dominant reason for the existence of the Terra Preta / Amazon Dark Earths.

 

I remember from some video (might have been BBC about El Eldorado?) commenting of harvesting the Terra Preta and that it seemed to continue to “ grow” (become deeper as soil was removed, but of course not being fast, and probably never scientifically measured).   But think about OUR modern day discussions about soil carbon sequestration and the “4 per 1000” efforts to get organic carbon increase in the soils.  “Living soil”.    Organic agriculture.   Roots and fungi and decay and life down in the soils.   And DEEP roots of prairie grasses.   (and MAYBE deep roots in the stronger vegetation of the Terra Preta soils where there is LIFE and growing deep down under the surface, away from sunlight, but fed by plant root systems.)  

 

Does the placement (intentional or not) of charcoal residues into soil STIMULATE the increase of soil organic matter beyond the mere counting of the kilos of biochar that are put into the soil?   (if you want to talk about that PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE.)   Here we are discussing Terra Preta.

 

Paul           

 

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD --- Website:   www.drtlud.com

         Email:  psanders@...       Skype:   paultlud

         Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile & WhatsApp: 309-531-4434

Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP    Go to: www.JuntosNFP.org 

Inventor of RoCC kilns and author of Biochar white paper :  See  www.woodgas.energy/resources  

Author of “A Capitalist Carol” (free digital copies at www.capitalism21.org)

         with pages 88 – 94 about solving the world crisis for clean cookstoves.

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tom Miles via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, January 9, 2021 10:18 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

[This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to abuse@...]

Geoff,

 

There have been some great explorations up and down the Amazon as described in the research article. Our friends at the Brazilian research organizations like Embrapa Amazônia Ocidental, EMBRAPA Amazonia Oriental,  Instituto Nacional de Pesquisas da Amazônia and their foreign collaborators like Johannes Lehman, Stephen Joseph, Christoph Steiner, and Bruno Glaser have spent years studies the archeology, anthropology, and agriculture and soil science surround the riparian communities. The sites we visited were no wider than 100 meters along the river, but the whole length of the two branches,  and clearly where dwelling had been and are today. Think of communities living along a river. The science and mechanisms of terra preta including accumulations of phosphorous seem to be pretty will understood by now.  

 

It is interesting to me that the formation described in the research is similar to what our foresters tell us created carbon reserves in our forest: low temperature fires promoting carbonization and flow of the carbon through erosion into valleys and areas later converted to crops. With today’s hot fires that produce less charcoal and the ditches, dams and diversions that have changed the flow of carbon and soil we are not replenishing the carbon. The sheer depth of the ADE makes you wonder if enough generations could have accumulated so much modified soil in even 4,000 years.

 

Tom    

 

_,_._,_


Nando Breiter
 

Thanks for your helpful comments Paul that seem to put this study in a larger perspective. Perhaps the Amerindian tribes got the idea to create terra preta from naturally occuring plots created by river flooding? We will never know one way or the other, but if we are going to create a story to explain our world and illustrate a point, it might as well have a compelling origin.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 7:20 PM Paul S Anderson <psanders@...> wrote:

To all,        (from a retired professor of the geography of Latin America)

 

The  Amazon basin is as big as the contiguous 48 United States, and that is large enough to have more than one “process” of creating the ADE (Amazon Dark Earths) or what is called Terra Preta (TP).   The environments include:

1.  The river itself

2.  The flood plain (the expected annual flood levels are very high):

“The researchers also looked at the severity and duration of floods and found that extreme floods have tended to be higher and longer-lasting, with water levels over 29.7 meters (97.5 feet) for more than 70 days occurring once every 3 years, compared to once every 50 years in the 1900s.” https://news.mongabay.com/2018/12/extreme-floods-on-the-rise-in-the-amazon-study/

 

3.  Sediments enrich the floodplain soils (where rivers have sediments, but the Rio Negro does not).   This includes the natural levees that go under water every year.   When in flood each year, there can be more than 100 kilometers from the dry land on one side to the  other.

 

4.  Terra Preta is not in the floodplain, but is on the bluffs and uplands above the river.   Where it does NOT ever flood.   And where the ancient tribes lived.   As Tom Miles correctly noted, they tended to live along the river (for transportation and fish etc.), but not where the floods would reach them.

 

5.  The Amazon basin includes the watershed from within the Andes (to the west)  and Cerrado (to the south) and the Guianas (to the north).   There are transition areas , but in  those area there are no extensive floodplains.

 

6.  The U-Oregon research was (I believe) in the “upper Amazon”.   How far “up” might explain some different findings.  I look forward to further analysis of those findings (but not by me.)   It would be very unfortunate if some “media coverage” of a research study stimulated any uninformed beliefs that the prior work about the ADE was incorrect. 

 

Personally, I am sticking with the main story of Indian residential and agricultural practices as the vastly dominant reason for the existence of the Terra Preta / Amazon Dark Earths.

 

I remember from some video (might have been BBC about El Eldorado?) commenting of harvesting the Terra Preta and that it seemed to continue to “ grow” (become deeper as soil was removed, but of course not being fast, and probably never scientifically measured).   But think about OUR modern day discussions about soil carbon sequestration and the “4 per 1000” efforts to get organic carbon increase in the soils.  “Living soil”.    Organic agriculture.   Roots and fungi and decay and life down in the soils.   And DEEP roots of prairie grasses.   (and MAYBE deep roots in the stronger vegetation of the Terra Preta soils where there is LIFE and growing deep down under the surface, away from sunlight, but fed by plant root systems.)  

 

Does the placement (intentional or not) of charcoal residues into soil STIMULATE the increase of soil organic matter beyond the mere counting of the kilos of biochar that are put into the soil?   (if you want to talk about that PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE.)   Here we are discussing Terra Preta.

 

Paul           

 

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD --- Website:   www.drtlud.com

         Email:  psanders@...       Skype:   paultlud

         Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile & WhatsApp: 309-531-4434

Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP    Go to: www.JuntosNFP.org 

Inventor of RoCC kilns and author of Biochar white paper :  See  www.woodgas.energy/resources  

Author of “A Capitalist Carol” (free digital copies at www.capitalism21.org)

         with pages 88 – 94 about solving the world crisis for clean cookstoves.

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tom Miles via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, January 9, 2021 10:18 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

[This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to abuse@...]

Geoff,

 

There have been some great explorations up and down the Amazon as described in the research article. Our friends at the Brazilian research organizations like Embrapa Amazônia Ocidental, EMBRAPA Amazonia Oriental,  Instituto Nacional de Pesquisas da Amazônia and their foreign collaborators like Johannes Lehman, Stephen Joseph, Christoph Steiner, and Bruno Glaser have spent years studies the archeology, anthropology, and agriculture and soil science surround the riparian communities. The sites we visited were no wider than 100 meters along the river, but the whole length of the two branches,  and clearly where dwelling had been and are today. Think of communities living along a river. The science and mechanisms of terra preta including accumulations of phosphorous seem to be pretty will understood by now.  

 

It is interesting to me that the formation described in the research is similar to what our foresters tell us created carbon reserves in our forest: low temperature fires promoting carbonization and flow of the carbon through erosion into valleys and areas later converted to crops. With today’s hot fires that produce less charcoal and the ditches, dams and diversions that have changed the flow of carbon and soil we are not replenishing the carbon. The sheer depth of the ADE makes you wonder if enough generations could have accumulated so much modified soil in even 4,000 years.

 

Tom    

 

_,_._,_


--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland


Ron Larson
 

List:

 I think we are predominantly in agreement that the paper in question needs to be repeated at a site like this one below.

I thought that the archaeological detective work discussed in this new paper was outstanding.  Just need to also go to a site with more prominent pot shards.

Ron






On Jan 10, 2021, at 12:46 PM, Nando Breiter <nando@...> wrote:

Thanks for your helpful comments Paul that seem to put this study in a larger perspective. Perhaps the Amerindian tribes got the idea to create terra preta from naturally occuring plots created by river flooding? We will never know one way or the other, but if we are going to create a story to explain our world and illustrate a point, it might as well have a compelling origin.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 7:20 PM Paul S Anderson <psanders@...> wrote:

To all,        (from a retired professor of the geography of Latin America)

 

The  Amazon basin is as big as the contiguous 48 United States, and that is large enough to have more than one “process” of creating the ADE (Amazon Dark Earths) or what is called Terra Preta (TP).   The environments include:

1.  The river itself

2.  The flood plain (the expected annual flood levels are very high):

“The researchers also looked at the severity and duration of floods and found that extreme floods have tended to be higher and longer-lasting, with water levels over 29.7 meters (97.5 feet) for more than 70 days occurring once every 3 years, compared to once every 50 years in the 1900s.” https://news.mongabay.com/2018/12/extreme-floods-on-the-rise-in-the-amazon-study/

 

3.  Sediments enrich the floodplain soils (where rivers have sediments, but the Rio Negro does not).   This includes the natural levees that go under water every year.   When in flood each year, there can be more than 100 kilometers from the dry land on one side to the  other.

 

4.  Terra Preta is not in the floodplain, but is on the bluffs and uplands above the river.   Where it does NOT ever flood.   And where the ancient tribes lived.   As Tom Miles correctly noted, they tended to live along the river (for transportation and fish etc.), but not where the floods would reach them.

 

5.  The Amazon basin includes the watershed from within the Andes (to the west)  and Cerrado (to the south) and the Guianas (to the north).   There are transition areas , but in  those area there are no extensive floodplains.

 

6.  The U-Oregon research was (I believe) in the “upper Amazon”.   How far “up” might explain some different findings.  I look forward to further analysis of those findings (but not by me.)   It would be very unfortunate if some “media coverage” of a research study stimulated any uninformed beliefs that the prior work about the ADE was incorrect. 

 

Personally, I am sticking with the main story of Indian residential and agricultural practices as the vastly dominant reason for the existence of the Terra Preta / Amazon Dark Earths.

 

I remember from some video (might have been BBC about El Eldorado?) commenting of harvesting the Terra Preta and that it seemed to continue to “ grow” (become deeper as soil was removed, but of course not being fast, and probably never scientifically measured).   But think about OUR modern day discussions about soil carbon sequestration and the “4 per 1000” efforts to get organic carbon increase in the soils.  “Living soil”.    Organic agriculture.   Roots and fungi and decay and life down in the soils.   And DEEP roots of prairie grasses.   (and MAYBE deep roots in the stronger vegetation of the Terra Preta soils where there is LIFE and growing deep down under the surface, away from sunlight, but fed by plant root systems.)  

 

Does the placement (intentional or not) of charcoal residues into soil STIMULATE the increase of soil organic matter beyond the mere counting of the kilos of biochar that are put into the soil?   (if you want to talk about that PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE.)   Here we are discussing Terra Preta.

 

Paul           

 

Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD --- Website:   www.drtlud.com

         Email:  psanders@...       Skype:   paultlud

         Phone:  Office: 309-452-7072    Mobile & WhatsApp: 309-531-4434

Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP    Go to: www.JuntosNFP.org 

Inventor of RoCC kilns and author of Biochar white paper :  See  www.woodgas.energy/resources  

Author of “A Capitalist Carol” (free digital copies at www.capitalism21.org)

         with pages 88 – 94 about solving the world crisis for clean cookstoves.

 

From: main@Biochar.groups.io <main@Biochar.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tom Miles via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, January 9, 2021 10:18 PM
To: main@Biochar.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Biochar] Terra Preta was formed from forest fires and river flooding

 

[This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to abuse@...]

Geoff,

 

There have been some great explorations up and down the Amazon as described in the research article. Our friends at the Brazilian research organizations like Embrapa Amazônia Ocidental, EMBRAPA Amazonia Oriental,  Instituto Nacional de Pesquisas da Amazônia and their foreign collaborators like Johannes Lehman, Stephen Joseph, Christoph Steiner, and Bruno Glaser have spent years studies the archeology, anthropology, and agriculture and soil science surround the riparian communities. The sites we visited were no wider than 100 meters along the river, but the whole length of the two branches,  and clearly where dwelling had been and are today. Think of communities living along a river. The science and mechanisms of terra preta including accumulations of phosphorous seem to be pretty will understood by now.  

 

It is interesting to me that the formation described in the research is similar to what our foresters tell us created carbon reserves in our forest: low temperature fires promoting carbonization and flow of the carbon through erosion into valleys and areas later converted to crops. With today’s hot fires that produce less charcoal and the ditches, dams and diversions that have changed the flow of carbon and soil we are not replenishing the carbon. The sheer depth of the ADE makes you wonder if enough generations could have accumulated so much modified soil in even 4,000 years.

 

Tom    

 

_,_._,_




--
Nando Breiter
http://biochar.info
CarbonZero Sagl
Astano, Switzerland